Satan, Samael, Lucifer

[Whiterain]

Anyone think that Satan is the Gnostic demon/deity Samael?

Do you think Satan and Lucifer are separate entities that were mixed together in the cuckhold of Catholocism?

Just curious... I'm not well versed in Gnosticism but it's fantastic.

It's sort of a similar story, Samael thought he was a God, opposed the reigning Deity, that came out of the shadows and struck him down into bondage.

Am I God? He questioned himself.
"No, you are not."
He came from the shadows.

Such epic literature.

I think Satan is a Samael. There is also some stories I've read that 'Satan' is not Lucifer and was also a Sumerian/Babylonian King eons ago, in an age when Men became Gods by entitlement like Pharaohs.


I would also relate Satan to Surtr but I can't begin to produce any grounding in that. And I hate universalism.

 

[Whiterain]

My brain is all screwed up from years of sunday skool telling me I'm going to the lake of fire.

 

[Mindmaster]

I think Satan was borrowed much in the way they borrowed all of the cool things from pagans -- the evidence seems to tend to the fact that Satan and the god the name represents are much older. (Holidays, the way they celebrate mass.. etc.) It isn't too difficult to see that they borrowed the ideas of Lucifer, Pan, Dionysus, and Prometheus grafted them to Satan to form their "Devil." For these we can form the understanding that our Satan is a nature-oriented deity (or maybe just a god of the physical realm period) who is responsible for giving man access to forbidden knowledge and thus access to the divine. Only being evil in the context that he is doing something that the other gods may find appalling -- sharing divine wisdom and art with humans. The Samael story is certainly where they grafted their idea of "Satan stuck in hell" from...

Anyway, it is apparent that Satan has had many names and many cultures understood exactly what that god represented regardless of their name for it. It however stands that the Christian perversion of the term mostly comes from the negative traits of Pan, and Dionysus. That these gifts they bring are something to be feared... They're right.. if you try to control peoples spiritual interface the god which represents their direct access to this concept is your enemy.

 

[EtuMalku]

Lucifer has no place in the Abrahamic paradigm, He is neither the Judeo-Christian Satan.
Lucifer is a pre‑Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E

 

[Whiterain]

Lucifer has no place in the Abrahamic paradigm, He is neither the Judeo-Christian Satan.
Lucifer is a pre‑Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E

Please tell me more, so Satan and Lucifer are different beings? It was a vision of mine they were separate beings, then I found out several people also believe this and that Satan was actually Sumerian deity and King or something. But I think Satan is the Samael of Gnostic beleifs, that's their Satan figure with a similar story of crossing God.

But the Gnostic story Samael merely thought he was God and God came from the shadows and told him he wasn't god and then enslaved him.

I can't find the resources on all that, it was things I picked up from various schizophrenics, lol.

 

[Acala]

Samael is the Demiurge who is Yaldabaoth.

' . . he boasted continually, saying to the angels ... "I am God, and no
other one exists except me." But when he said these things, he sinned
against all of the immortal ones... when Pistis Sophia saw the impiety of the
chief ruler, she was angry... she said, "You err, Yaldabaoth Samael.
An enlightened, immortal humanity existed before you' - Hypostasis of the Archons

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You'll get different answers from different people, since there's no dogma in Gnosticism as a whole.

As a Gnostic Luciferian, I think that Lucifer has many names/guises. Samael, the Serpent in the Garden, Samyaza, Prometheus, Enki, the Great Dragon, Set (as in Setianism), etc. are all cultural guises of His, from what I can tell. Some think that Satan is not the same Being as Lucifer and that's their opinion they're entitled to. I think Satan is a slur His enemies have stuck on Him in an attempt to defame Him and scare the flock away from Him.

 

[Rapha]

Samyaza

Can you verify that Shymhz is Lucifer ?

After being contacted by Shemyhaza i learned that he was joint leader (wingless fallen watcher) with Azazel (fallen seraph) plus the remaining 199 fallen watchers.

 

[Mindmaster]

You'll get different answers from different people, since there's no dogma in Gnosticism as a whole.

As a Gnostic Luciferian, I think that Lucifer has many names/guises. Samael, the Serpent in the Garden, Samyaza, Prometheus, Enki, the Great Dragon, Set (as in Setianism), etc. are all cultural guises of His, from what I can tell. Some think that Satan is not the same Being as Lucifer and that's their opinion they're entitled to. I think Satan is a slur His enemies have stuck on Him in an attempt to defame Him and scare the flock away from Him.

I don't completely disagree with the last point -- and, I think some modern Satanists use the term to keep tire kickers away. Personally, I view Lucifer as the passive-aggressive personality friendly Satan - that is what people associate to when they can't just fess up to being straight up Satanists. Some people use it as a an attempt to escape from negative connotations or whatever, but again... Apples to apples here... Historically, the Satan/Lucifer/ type guy is more consistent than Jehovah... He just has more names.. Satan has always historically been associated with all of the "light concepts" that Luciferians are going on about most of the time, so to me it's just whether you like dunkel, ipa, or craft beer. It's just a style/taste issue and nothing much to squabble about.

As far as Samyaza, religions are like politics -- there is great incentive to lie about everything for profits sake. I personally only trust my own meditations on these subjects and put very little trust outside of those efforts. For now, I've got little interest in the subject -- I don't need to authenticate the Bible so I don't care about the "backstory" anymore.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't completely disagree with the last point -- and, I think some modern Satanists use the term to keep tire kickers away. Personally, I view Lucifer as the passive-aggressive personality friendly Satan - that is what people associate to when they can't just fess up to being straight up Satanists. Some people use it as a an attempt to escape from negative connotations or whatever, but again... Apples to apples here... Historically, the Satan/Lucifer/ type guy is more consistent than Jehovah... He just has more names.. Satan has always historically been associated with all of the "light concepts" that Luciferians are going on about most of the time, so to me it's just whether you like dunkel, ipa, or craft beer. It's just a style/taste issue and nothing much to squabble about.

As far as Samyaza, religions are like politics -- there is great incentive to lie about everything for profits sake. I personally only trust my own meditations on these subjects and put very little trust outside of those efforts. For now, I've got little interest in the subject -- I don't need to authenticate the Bible so I don't care about the "backstory" anymore.

Okay, you caught me. It really is the same thing, I just don't like to label myself with a negative.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

You'll get different answers from different people, since there's no dogma in Gnosticism as a whole.

As a Gnostic Luciferian, I think that Lucifer has many names/guises. Samael, the Serpent in the Garden, Samyaza, Prometheus, Enki, the Great Dragon, Set (as in Setianism), etc. are all cultural guises of His, from what I can tell. Some think that Satan is not the same Being as Lucifer and that's their opinion they're entitled to. I think Satan is a slur His enemies have stuck on Him in an attempt to defame Him and scare the flock away from Him.

There are arguably multiple Satans and multiple Lucifers. I definitely think of Satanism as a different religion than Luciferianism - the former is about power and pleasure and the latter is about knowledge and self-development. I definitely associate the two with a very different aesthetic.

 

[Neo Deist]

Lucifer is not another name for Satan. That was a bad translation done by the KJV, borrowing from the Latin Vulgate. Modern bibles have removed the term from the verse of Isaiah 14:12 after realizing the error.

Lucifer is merely a Latin term for the Greek heosphorus, and it refers to the morning star; Venus.

 

[Mindmaster]

Lucifer is not another name for Satan. That was a bad translation done by the KJV, borrowing from the Latin Vulgate. Modern bibles have removed the term from the verse of Isaiah 14:12 after realizing the error.

Lucifer is merely a Latin term for the Greek heosphorus, and it refers to the morning star; Venus.

In a technical sense yes, but not colloquially. The differences have eroded to the point where Satan = Lucifer - since the meaning of the term is now basically synonymous it is irrelevant what the previous use was. That which dies is dead....

Anyway, allusions that Satanism is really about some hedonistic epicurean idealism are just missing the point; maybe LaVey and crew are so easily bemused, but the there are great deal of others who aren't so easily vexed. Real Satanism and is about the manifestation of the self to the ultimate extent desired. However, it is easy to get tripped up and mired by a plethora of petty vices if one lacks self-discipline and this is where a lot of folks get stalled. The public at large is more likely to see these failures because they're easy targets and fit the popular stereotypes -- but, if you think they represent the real thing you would sorely be mistaken.

As far as using Satan vs Lucifer any negative connotations lie strictly in the mind of the reader or thinker. Morality is completely arbitrary and largely defined by who has the most money, guns, or stands to profit by one behaving a certain way. Anytime someone decides to frame anything in such a way they are already trying to manipulate you. I am not immune to these gestures at all points myself, but I think it behooves one to diligently resist such rubbish as it pollutes ones mind and is generally hazardous to your survival.

And Frank, at least you are not self-deceptive with the whole thing like half the folks around.

 

[Neo Deist]

In a technical sense yes, but not colloquially. The differences have eroded to the point where Satan = Lucifer - since the meaning of the term is now basically synonymous it is irrelevant what the previous use was. That which dies is dead....

Repeating something that is wrong, over and over, does not make it right.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Anyway, allusions that Satanism is really about some hedonistic epicurean idealism are just missing the point; maybe LaVey and crew are so easily bemused, but the there are great deal of others who aren't so easily vexed. Real Satanism and is about the manifestation of the self to the ultimate extent desired. However, it is easy to get tripped up and mired by a plethora of petty vices if one lacks self-discipline and this is where a lot of folks get stalled. The public at large is more likely to see these failures because they're easy targets and fit the popular stereotypes -- but, if you think they represent the real thing you would sorely be mistaken.

That's the form of Satanism I'm most familiar with, but fair enough. I myself get very annoyed when people reduce Dionysos to a drunken party god, for a similar example. He is so much more complex than that.

btw, the actual Epicureans weren't "hedonists" in the modern sense at all. They advocated moderate pleasures and the whole thing really had nothing to do with food or sex.

 

[Mindmaster]

Repeating something that is wrong, over and over, does not make it right.

Nah, I realize the origins but live here and today. Now matters far more than two-thousand years ago... It is malleable, and the other is fixed and finished. Language changes as time caries forward it is best to speak in the present tense unless we are getting into a deep scholarly analysis of such things -- even then it only matters insofar as the impact at this point in time.

That's the form of Satanism I'm most familiar with, but fair enough. I myself get very annoyed when people reduce Dionysos to a drunken party god, for a similar example. He is so much more complex than that.

btw, the actual Epicureans weren't "hedonists" in the modern sense at all. They advocated moderate pleasures and the whole thing really had nothing to do with food or sex.

Well, in the sense I used we are referring to neo-epicureanism that was revived in the renaissance. Many of these ideas were borrowed by LaVey, so that is the sense that I was using them in.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nah, I realize the origins but live here and today. Now matters far more than two-thousand years ago... It is malleable, and the other is fixed and finished. Language changes as time caries forward it is best to speak in the present tense unless we are getting into a deep scholarly analysis of such things -- even then it only matters insofar as the impact at this point in time.

Besides, this is the occult and spirituality. We're not talking about dry academic facts. This is mythology.

 

[MonkeyFire]

They may be different. But, the bible references satan, and his angels never being found in Heaven ever again. So it can be that satan is only a devil and Lucifer goes to hell for all eternity as the devils angel, or satan is a devil and a angel himself. If satan were this devil angel Lucifer could be one of Michaels angels instead. Just like faith and knowledge.

 

[crossfire]

Repeating something that is wrong, over and over, does not make it right.

This, imo, would the Samael connection here. "The Poison of god." (So, is it Samael's fault that Lucifer is often mistaken for Satan?)

 

[Phantasman]

Satan is a term for ignorance of the Father. As Jesus called Peter once.

Spiritual ignorance is spoken of in the Gospel of Truth and Secret John on a higher spiritual understanding than the gray areas of the OT. Remember, the Holy Spirit of truth couldn't come into man to give clarity until Jesus was glorified. John 7:39