Satan beats people up so they won't be saved

[74x12]

The problem with this logic of course is that absolves people of personal responsibility -- blame The Devil instead of oneself, sure makes it easy for ya.

The other issue of course is that if things are as they say in The Bible, then if Satan exists and does bad things to some extent Jehovah condones those actions, as if he didn't, he'd just stop Satan in his tracks no doubt. Or, of course, the Bible lies completely on the matter and God isn't as powerful as he says.

No it doesn't absolve people from guilt. However, it does put things into perspective. That perhaps you weren't as bad as you originally thought. Because that is part of satan's deception to convince people they are hopeless. But there is always hope in God. But, no one is good and how Satan works is by preying on your weaknesses; so that you will destroy yourself. So no one is without guilt and should confess their sinfulness to God and repent.

As for God condoning Satan's actions. It's like in the book of Job if you read it. Satan is acting as the "prosecuting attorney". God allows it for now; but if people remain faithful; then God will eventually put a stop to it.

Satan does it out of pure malice and hatred for humanity. But God uses it for God because people's virtue must be tested so that it will become even more virtuous.

 

[74x12]

"Satan" is a childish caricature for self-deception. As adults, I think we ought to contemplate the phenomena directly. I see no positive reason why a grown man or woman would need to employ such a conceptual artifice.

satan's as real as you or I.

 

[74x12]

Is it really Satan doing this, though? Why do people sin? Hunger, fatigue, loneliness, illness, fear - among other reasons. These are apparent design flaws put into us by the Creator, not Satan.

If you put dogs in a cage and then throw in a slice of meat for them to fight over, you can't very well blame the dogs, can you? You can't blame some third party who had nothing to do with setting it up that way either. The only one to blame for the situation is the Designer Himself. Worse still, rather than owning up to His mistakes, He blames subordinates for His own failures.

Satan is real and he knows his job really well. As for design flaws. They are in the flesh. Which is what we inherit from our sinful ancestors.

And when you get into the topic of the flesh. Yes, there is nothing to separate us from the animals. We're just like dogs. But, we have a spirit and we have a human's understanding. We're supposed to rise above the animalistic nature of our bodies.

God realized that it was difficult. Perhaps impossible to do. This is why Jesus died on the cross to put the flesh(the beast nature) to death. So, then rising from the dead Jesus lives to God.

The same should happen for us. By receiving the Spirit of Jesus Christ; we are enabled to crucify the flesh and live in the Spirit. So we don't have to fulfill the evil desires of the animal flesh.

 

[PureX]

The same could be said of all religions.

No, it couldn't. Not honestly or intelligently, anyway. It's true that religions create caricatures for "God", but "God" as a concept and experience extends far beyond mere self-deception. To ignore this would be intellectually dishonest and debilitating.

 

[74x12]

"He drags people into sins" makes it sound as if people don't have a choice. Is that really the case? The biblical Job suffered tremendous pain and degradation didn't he, but isn't he an example of what is mentioned at the end of one of the passages you quoted: (1 Peter 5:8-9) "Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.". Isn't this similar to James 4:7 "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you".

I wonder sometimes if God let Satan create Hell to punish people for blaming Satan for the evil that MEN - and women - do! Poor fellow...can you imagine how stressful it must be to get blamed for just about all the evil in the world. I wouldn't want to be his therapist!

So here's an interesting question. We blame the evil in the world on the devil, yet what does God say in Isaiah 43:7? "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." But wait, God is saying that HE created evil and darkness! So is the Devil just God's helper - manifesting God's darkness, while the other angels manifest his light? Why would God create evil? Was it a typo in the translation? Or...is it possible that Good and Evil are like the two poles of a battery that are needed for electricity to flow.... except in this case the "electricity" is the spiritual evolution of humanity? I wonder how many of us would seek a spiritual light, if there were no darkness to stumble, fall and wander around lost in?

The fact that even Jesus Christ had to get tempted by Satan - before his death and resurrection- makes me wonder if Satan is - or is a symbol for - something a little more profound than a reason for us to blame OUR inner demons, bad luck, bad judgement, and lack of spirituality on?

I wish you were right about satan not being real; but it's become all too obvious that satan and his demonic kingdom are real and they control this world to a degree as allowed by God.

As for God creating the darkness. It's true and that's why I said earlier in the thread that God could not create darkness directly. Because God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5) But, God could make it indirectly by shining His light upon satan. Thus a shadow is formed because satan stood against the Light.

God needs evil to exist because it is like the fire in His furnace that purifies the good creation He is making. As long as we understand that creation is not finished and that creation is only really finished when the new Jerusalem is finished then we will understand how God allows evil to temporarily exist so that goodness can be built and purified and become perfectly pure and tested in the fire.

So, when God rested on the 7th day I believe He rested in the new Jerusalem when all creation is "good" and evil is gone because it's work is finished.

 

[PureX]

satan's as real as you or I.

And ONLY as real as you and I. That was my point.

 

[74x12]

And ONLY as real as you and I. That was my point.

I see what you did there, but I still disagree. He's a literal entity. A spirit but he is real.

 

[1213]

He drags people into sins and makes them suffer pain and degradation so they will be forever alienated towards their Creator.
...

I think Satan tells just what the people want to hear and then it is actually people’s own bad desires that lead them away from God.

 

[74x12]

I think Satan tells just what the people want to hear and then it is actually people’s own bad desires that lead them away from God.

Sure, he's a master manipulator. The point of my thread is not to discuss how satan does it but that he does it.

As the old saying goes

"the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf"

Satan's favorite thing is the con job. He's like the fox and he enjoys the con; but he will also use the more open violence of the wolf sometimes.

 

[Sky Rivers]

Funny. God tormented me, inflicted pain and suffering upon me, and tore me down. Lucifer empowered me to pick myself up and make my life significantly better. God and his ilk degraded me in ways you probably can't understand. Lucifer set me down the path towards realizing I don't need all the needless shame and guilt of this "sin," and I need not be ashamed or embarrassed of myself. And instead of praying to god for help, Lucifer encourages pride in self achievement but having enough senses to know when to ask for help.
Lucifer destroyed the chains and shackles the Clergy placed around me when I was offered to god.

Actually, darkness is the default. Shadows exist darkness was there first. Light is the invader.

Surely anything worthy of being called god is not so petty and trivial it creates something with the intention of "triumphing" over it, especially when the alleged triumph is inevitable.

It's like looking in a mirror at my prior self...

Jesus Christ saved from from Luciferianism and the LHP. I walked that way for many years and it only brought me ruin; ruin dressed up as sucesss. I always had another rung to climb on the ladder, another stone to step on in order to get to the big prize. It was always a little more, a bit longer, after this lesson or after this milestone, and you know what? It was all a big con, a game, a ruse. There was indeed an end destination but it was destruction and not in the gnostic sense either. It was destruction, lifeless, empty, mindless... destruction.

I recall the dogma. Yes, light was the invader, darkness was true and it came first. Darkness was alive, sentient, and light was false. It was always about reversal; the darkness was the true light, Lucifer was the only god who mattered, and pain became pleasure the mundane were too weak to understand. Morality became a stumbling block, invented to placate the masses. It was a world in reverse. Bad was good, good was stifling and sterile. Everything was permitted (not really) and my mind descend into a lawless realm where the height of human experience and endeavor was reduced to every foul lust and depravity around the sun.

 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

As I understand it, the premise of God is such that if you believe and follow him you are rewarded, if you do not you are dammed/ sent to hell. How does that make God any less of a manipulator than Satan?

 

[PureX]

I see what you did there, but I still disagree. He's a literal entity. A spirit but he is real.

Yes, spirit is real. It exists within us. "Satan" is the spirit of self-deception. Just as the "holy spirit" is real, and it also exists within us. It is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, and compassion. And we choose which spirit we allow to motivate us. And through those choices we define ourselves.

 

[Mindmaster]

No it doesn't absolve people from guilt. However, it does put things into perspective. That perhaps you weren't as bad as you originally thought. Because that is part of satan's deception to convince people they are hopeless. But there is always hope in God. But, no one is good and how Satan works is by preying on your weaknesses; so that you will destroy yourself. So no one is without guilt and should confess their sinfulness to God and repent.

As for God condoning Satan's actions. It's like in the book of Job if you read it. Satan is acting as the "prosecuting attorney". God allows it for now; but if people remain faithful; then God will eventually put a stop to it.

Satan does it out of pure malice and hatred for humanity. But God uses it for God because people's virtue must be tested so that it will become even more virtuous.

Yeah, it does. If evil exists and God exists God made evil and is fine with it. Why aren't you? And what is evil anyway? And, no, I don't mean things that indicate psychosis like murdering people, child molesters, or rapists. If what is evil is simply not following the precepts of The Bible to a tee then there are obvious points of argument, given that that's a man-made material shaped by religious bias, politics, and transcriptional error.

On forgiveness or faith - I have no guilt, absolutely none... It's a completely useless emotion -- wallowing in self-pity and shame... Pardon me if I find something better to do. If I don't like how the events of my life are shaping up I do things to fix them. Why the hell would God care anyway? You're just a speck of dust in comparison to the creation. It's sort of arrogant to presume that you are any more important then a pile of dirt to such a creature. These sound like man's wishes for the sky daddy and not what the thing really would be. I find it hard to believe that the little relatively insignificant meanderings of your life are going to offend such a being. If he exists why does he care if you believe in him or not? I don't care if you believe I exist, and I'm sure you don't care if I believe you do. This is more made up nonsense... The particulars are a cacophony of human projections onto a limitless being, not something the ultimate creator would likely think. Of course, presuming for the sake of the argument that there is a personality or ego to offend in this divine force in the first place; of which, no one truly knows either way.

Also, no where in the Bible does Satan ever act out of malice nor is it implied that he does/did. You, or your faith are making that stuff up. Stop it. When Job is tested he literally asks God if he can test him, but while he's doing it he's not sitting there chuckling at the poor sap while he's suffering. If anything, it's simply Satan's duty to do what he had been doing since the Garden. At least, if there is any truth to The Bible at all.

 

[QuestioningMind]

satan's as real as you or I.

ROFL... yeah, you have exactly as much verifiable evidence for your Satan as I have for the magical fairies that live in my attic. It's amazing what people are capable of deluding themselves into believing.

 

[dingdao]

It's not that good couldn't exist without evil, but without both, either one is kind of meaningless.

Wait a minute, we can get into a philosophical argument on this.
I could take the position that we have never seen true good.

 

[dingdao]

No it doesn't absolve people from guilt. However, it does put things into perspective. That perhaps you weren't as bad as you originally thought. Because that is part of satan's deception to convince people they are hopeless. But there is always hope in God. But, no one is good and how Satan works is by preying on your weaknesses; so that you will destroy yourself. So no one is without guilt and should confess their sinfulness to God and repent.

As for God condoning Satan's actions. It's like in the book of Job if you read it. Satan is acting as the "prosecuting attorney". God allows it for now; but if people remain faithful; then God will eventually put a stop to it.

Satan does it out of pure malice and hatred for humanity. But God uses it for God because people's virtue must be tested so that it will become even more virtuous.

Not quite prosecuting attorney, or at least in that capacity.
Hey, God
Yea, Satan
See Job down there?
Yea
He worships you, he obeys the Torah
Yea?
I bet I can flip him.
What's at stake?
I win, you implement my March Madness bracket.
Your on
So Job loses everything because of a bet he had no part in.

 

[Katzpur]

Wait a minute, we can get into a philosophical argument on this.
I could take the position that we have never seen true good.

We probably haven't, but there are varying degrees of both good and evil. Lots of shades of gray.

 

[dingdao]

I think Satan tells just what the people want to hear and then it is actually people’s own bad desires that lead them away from God.

I don't think he even needs to tell them.

 

[dingdao]

Have you heard of Unitarianism? One incarnation was good enough to save all people, whether they've heard of him or not.

Then there is Universalism, everyone is saved no matter what.

Unfortunately, when they merged, they threw it all out.

 

[Stevicus]

Satan is real and he knows his job really well. As for design flaws. They are in the flesh. Which is what we inherit from our sinful ancestors.

And when you get into the topic of the flesh. Yes, there is nothing to separate us from the animals. We're just like dogs. But, we have a spirit and we have a human's understanding. We're supposed to rise above the animalistic nature of our bodies.

God realized that it was difficult. Perhaps impossible to do. This is why Jesus died on the cross to put the flesh(the beast nature) to death. So, then rising from the dead Jesus lives to God.

The same should happen for us. By receiving the Spirit of Jesus Christ; we are enabled to crucify the flesh and live in the Spirit. So we don't have to fulfill the evil desires of the animal flesh.

I suppose the main question would be is, why go through all this? Is the process more important than the end result? If the goal is for humans to live in the Spirit, why not just create them that way in the first place? Why bother creating us with flesh if that's a flawed design which leads to sin?

When you really cut it down to the nuts and bolts of our existence, it seems that life is nothing more than some kind of sadistic endurance contest. And Jesus' role in this contest is to give us a free mulligan.