1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Satan a Striking Serpent

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    nachash = serpent comes from the root word and verb nachash; which is soothsaying, divining.

    In her book, "Origin of Satan", Elaine Pagels describes satan as:

    In biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role. It is not the name of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers as early as the sixth century B.C.E. occasionally introduced a supernatural character whom they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human activity. [Elaine Pagels, "The Origin of Satan," 1995]




    Jesus refers to himself as the Light of the world. This is also Lucifer's name.

    He also makes another inference in that no one ascends to heaven; except the Son of Man who fell from heaven.

    So are prophets, like Jesus, the adversaries of mankind's journey in to materialism?

    this would make the serpent in the garden an adversary too; which would make it a prophet, or soothsayer, seer.




    Ezekiel 21:15
    So that hearts may melt with fear and the fallen be many, I have stationed the sword for slaughter at all their gates. Look! It is forged to strike like lightning, it is grasped for slaughter.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Psalm 29:7
    The voice of the Lord strikes with flashes of lightning.
     
    #1 Fool, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  2. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Ratings:
    +494
    Religion:
    Islam
    Jesus pbuh was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so this reference is likely a later interpolation.

    ie you have to go through trials and tests before you can return to Heaven.
     
  3. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,081
    Ratings:
    +1,420
    There are some verses calling human adversaries by the same root word as Satan too. David was called one at one point even. I'd pull the verses but half the time whenever I shove the Hebrew and English side by side in people's faces they still don't believe me.

    Some site I always used had the Hebrew and English side by side. Look it up, narrowing down by the use of the rootword for Satan.... or google for where David was called Satan in Hebrew.

    Some other uses for Satan as Samael as well in non OT stuff but more like Talmudic lore but I won't get into that right now...
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    aren't those who have gone astray, lost?

    Matthew 22:29
    Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    Mark 12:24
    Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?

    James 5:20
    remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


    trial by fire = alchemy

    Luke 3:16
    John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Deuteronomy 4:20
    But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
     
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    any chance it's these two?

    2 Samuel 24:1
    24 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

    1 Chronicles 21:1
    [ David Counts the Fighting Men ] Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.


    satan, or adversary, comes from satan the verb to oppose, or resist.
     
  6. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,808
    Ratings:
    +2,542
    First Jesus is the Light of the world the equivalent would be the Sun. Per your link and my understanding Lucifer is the Light bringer or bearer of the light the equivalent would be person with a flash light. Just because light is in the title it is not an equivalent.

    I would like a reference for the quote the Son of Man who fell from heaven. In all my studies I have never come across it. John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. None of the translations state Fall.

    The Serpent of the garden has always be depicted as an adversary but why does that make him a prophet, I don't see the connection.

    You last 3 quotes only Ezekiel and Psalm are equivalents lighting seems to mean power. Yes lighting is used in all three but in Luke it is referring to speed not power. I am also not sure of your point anyway.
     
  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    what goes up must come down.

    the antonym of ascend is descend or fall.


    Genesis 28:12
    He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

    John 1:51
    He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.”
     
  8. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,808
    Ratings:
    +2,542
    Except the Bible states Jesus was born unto Man. Meaning Jesus did not fall or descend but was created. What angels do would only matter if you could prove Jesus was an angel.

    Even John 1:51 Indicates Jesus is different notice the Son of Man which you are using to refer to Jesus.
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    because literalist would believe a serpent talks. a gnostic and figuratists would know that snakes don't talk but it might be a wise man, or cunning one.

    The Fall in to materialism, matter.
    3 Now the serpent was more crafty(wise, cunning) than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?

    The Lord saw that man was atrophying because of the complacency and comfort. There was no change, evolution, no maturing. So he was cast out.


    i've explained in prior postings in this thread that serpents are a metaphor, for people like druids, associated with soothsaying, prophecying, oracles.

    1 Samuel 9:9
    (Formerly in Israel, if someone went to inquire of God, they would say, “Come, let us go to the seer,” because the prophet of today used to be called a seer.)


     
    #9 Fool, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    messengers are angels, the sons of god were the prophets. the spirit moves upon the water. the breath of life is breathed into the matter and the spirit quickeneth. this is the same as spirit descending into matter as my avatar symbolizes, the sri yantra.

    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha contain a few passages in which the title "son of God" is given to the Messiah (see Enoch, cv. 2; IV Esdras vii. 28-29; xiii. 32, 37, 52; xiv. 9); but the title belongs also to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom ii. 13, 16, 18; v. 5, where "the sons of God" are identical with "the saints"; comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] iv. 10). It is through such personal relations that the individual becomes conscious of God's fatherhood, and gradually in Hellenistic and rabbinical literature "sonship to God" was ascribed first to every Israelite and then to every member of the human race (Abot iii. 15, v. 20; Ber. v. 1;see Abba).
     
    #10 Fool, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  11. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,808
    Ratings:
    +2,542
    What do Gnostic's and Figuratists believe Eden, Adam and Eve stand for? What do they believe the forbidden fruit stands for? What do they believe God stands for? Which part of the story is literal and which parts do I need to read up what your particular form of Gnosticism or Figuratism believe.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    there was two adams. the first adam was mankind. not an individual. the 2nd was an individual.

    ezekiel was known as the son of man.

    nothing unique there. god is not a respecter and doesn't show favoritism.
     
  13. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,808
    Ratings:
    +2,542
    Ezekiel and all humans are the Sons of man. Jesus was both the Son of Man and God. Who else has that title?

    I'm just going to sum up my understanding of what you are saying. Lucifer was Jesus. Lucifer came down from heaven and put himself in Mary's womb. The bible clearly indicates Mary carried baby Jesus. Lucifer(Jesus) was born heralded by the angels(angels are important to your story). (Lucifer)Jesus grew up the Bible and Gnostic texts have several stories of (Lucifer) Jesus as a child. Lucifer(Jesus) went to the desert and met himself to test himself. Lucifer(Jesus) collected apostles died was buried and then ascended into heaven. Yet Lucifer could not turn himself into a snake and talk to eve in Eden.
     
  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    jesus didn't come to justify the religious elitists. he was an adversary to the holier-than-thous. he played the part. .

    God is not a god of injustice and/or indifference. God said I AM that i am meaning that God is present everywhere and the kingdom comes from within everything, everywhere I AM. Jesus said that i am god and so i am that I AM. i am in the Father and the Father is in me. The ALL said I AM the all that is

    John 3:8
    The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”


    The Spirit comes from God. The flesh from the earthly parents.

    John 3:6
    Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it


    Revelation 9:1
    The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Revelation 1:18
    I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.


    Matthew 2:2
    and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
     
    #15 Fool, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  15. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    8,808
    Ratings:
    +2,542
    I can agree with these statements what that has to do with the OP is beyond my comprehension. To me you seem to be all over the place, I can not follow your train of thought, sorry.
     
  16. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    they called him beelzebub

    Luke 11:19
    And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
     
  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    12,124
    Ratings:
    +2,329
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    justice requires a prosecutor, a public defender, for the people who have been disenfranchised, to those who have suffered. the coming doesn't come with your careful observation. it comes in a flash of insight. like lightning flashing from east to west across the mind's eye.


    Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?



    Justice will be a servant to the ALL


    Matthew 23:11
    The greatest among you shall be your servant.


     
    #18 Fool, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  18. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,081
    Ratings:
    +1,420
    That's a couple of them but the one with David I was thinking of when the philistines or someone like that called David an adversary.

    At some point I'll dig through my notes, I recall it hard to find the specific verse online but I have it written down somewhere. There's a site that so long as you know the verse will bring straight up the original Hebrew compared to English translations.
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein On the funeral pyre of existence
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    34,102
    Ratings:
    +19,360
    Religion:
    शाक्त / Heathenry
    No, it's when he calls himself the Morning Star, that would translate to Lucifer in Latin.
     
Loading...