Samson the Sinner, Why was He saved?

[jewscout]

It is obvious that Samson was favoured, was it only because he was chosen? David suffered consequences for his indiscretions and was repentent. Is there any evidence of Samson's repentance other that his favor with God?

Samson's power came from HaShem, when he claimed it was contained in his hair he lost that power...had his eyes put out and shackled by the philistines as a POW, placed in prison and then led out and mocked by the philistines...the great man was tortured and humbled...
how is that for consequences?

By the way I've never implied perfection was a requirement for favor with God. Redemption allows for imperfection. I'm wondering what were Samson's redeeming qualities.

his redeeming qualities...he was a warrior who fought the enemy of the Nation of Israel and was a leader, a judge for 20 years. He did the will of HaShem.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That isn't what he said. He said it seems those held in high esteem with god were ones who killed or were killed in his name. He never said the bible states this is required for salvation.

The operative word then, in those cases, would be obedience. Obedience to God's commands. MediumGuy seems to want to impugn the actions by saying that killing is the way to gain favor with God. That's pure nonsense and he knows it.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Samson's power came from HaShem, when he claimed it was contained in his hair he lost that power...had his eyes put out and shackled by the philistines as a POW, placed in prison and then led out and mocked by the philistines...the great man was tortured and humbled...
how is that for consequences?

Those were definately consequences. I probably should have asked what was the punishment for his sins. David for example lost his child as a punishment not a consequence.

his redeeming qualities...he was a warrior who fought the enemy of the Nation of Israel and was a leader, a judge for 20 years. He did the will of HaShem.

I'll accept that, all but the being a judge part. Nothing is said in scripture about the nature of his judgeship and there is evidence of bad judges. I'm not aware of anything that states that Samson judged Israel in a manner that pleased God.

 

[Ryan2065]

The operathive word then, in those cases, would be obedience. Obedience to God's commands. MediumGuy seems to want to impugn the actions by saying that killing is the way to gain favor with God. That's pure crap and he knows it.

So are you saying that in the Old Testament most of the people held in gods good graces were people who never killed anyone? It is like that in many religions... A hero who does well on the battlefield seems to have gods grace and that is what is making him do so well...

His point was many people in the Bible have killed in gods name or were killed for believing in god. Most of these people are in favor with god. He even listed a few examples for you which you just dismissed and instead attacked him and then even put words in his mouth.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So are you saying that in the Old Testament most of the people held in gods good graces were people who never killed anyone? It is like that in many religions... A hero who does well on the battlefield seems to have gods grace and that is what is making him do so well...

His point was many people in the Bible have killed in gods name or were killed for believing in god. Most of these people are in favor with god. He even listed a few examples for you which you just dismissed and instead attacked him and then even put words in his mouth.

I've stated clearly my meaning. And, yes, I attacked his premise, because, Biblically, it's nonsense.

 

[Ryan2065]

I've stated clearly my meaning. And, yes, I attacked his premise, because, Biblically, it's full of crap.

So there aren't many people in the bible who killed others for god/their state?


In terms of the OP... Samson was saved because he repented in the end... If god is all knowing then he would have known this end result and it would have been all good =)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In terms of the OP... Samson was saved because he repented in the end...

What scripture would you use to back that up?

 

[jewscout]

I'll accept that, all but the being a judge part. Nothing is said in scripture about the nature of his judgeship and there is evidence of bad judges. I'm not aware of anything that states that Samson judged Israel in a manner that pleased God.

there's nothing in the scripture that says anything positive or negative about Samson's judgeship...only that he was a judge (Judges 15:20, 16:31)

we could sumise that, based soley on the scripture, he was, perhaps "ok" as neither an overly positive or negative review of his leadership is given

 

[Ryan2065]

What scripture would you use to back that up?

Er, god granting him the strength to kill his enemies in the end?

Either god granted him this strength that he asked for. It is one of those "read between the lines" things...

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Er, god granting him the strength to kill his enemies in the end?

Either god granted him this strength that he asked for. It is one of those "read between the lines" things...

I one can read whatever they like between the lines. A lot of error occurs that way, like killing people is the way to earn favor with God.

I generally just try to read it the way it was wrote.

 

[Ryan2065]

I one can read whatever they like between the lines. A lot of error occurs that way, like killing people is the way to earn favor with God.

Ahh, no no, it was killing people in the name of god. Its not hard to realize how this happened... Someone who does great in the military, espically in those days, is going to be considered a great warrior and many times great warriors go on to lead lives in politics because of their fame. Depending on how great they are, one could easily claim that god is behind them (David, Solomon, Samson, etc)

Also generally god does not grant the wishes of someone who doesn't feel sorry for what they did... Thats the part where I read between the lines.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ahh, no no, it was killing people in the name of god. Its not hard to realize how this happened... Someone who does great in the military, espically in those days, is going to be considered a great warrior and many times great warriors go on to lead lives in politics because of their fame. Depending on how great they are, one could easily claim that god is behind them (David, Solomon, Samson, etc)

Perhaps you haven't noticed that this thread is in the Biblical debate category. Some biblical insight would be aprreciated.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Sandy,

I gave you an answer to the OP which was "How was a profligate sinner like Samson in God's good graces" or something to that effect with the IMO Biblically accurate answer of he did 2 things which many other hero's of the Bible did. He killed at God's command and he died at God's command.

When you didn't like my answer and said it was mere speculation I then cited names of other Biblical Characters who were considered to be held in high esteem by Him, and cited some of their deeds including specifically killings that they did at God's command. I even cited Book, Chapter and Verse where the tales of said deeds could be found in the Bible. I neglected to do the same for martyrs assuming that we could all agree that there have been numerous martyr's throughout the Bible and beyond.

Apparently you didn't care for that answer and began replying to me as if I had stated that killing in the name of God was the only way to get into God's good graces, which I never said, nor implied.

If you are afraid of my answers sir, then I recommend you cease to ask such scary questions. My answer to the OP was direct and on point and when questioned about my response I backed up my answer in this "Biblical Debates" forum with citation to the very Bible we are debating about. I don't know how much more in keeping with the spirit of this thread I could be.

My only conclusion can be that since I do not beleive in the Bible, you think I have no basis for debating anything Biblical.

I can however read the Bible, and have, and often do, and did so in preparing my second post on this thread. That you do not care for the answer, backed up by Scripture is your problem Sandy, not mine. The fact that you insist on ascribing things to me that I neither said, nor implied, however is a problem for me and one which I do not appreciate.

Killing in God's name and martyring yourself for God are both found extensively in the Bible and without fail those who are written about in the Bible doing either act are written about as if they are in God's good graces. You asked what allowed Samson to be in God's good graces, and I gave you a reasoned and Biblically accurate response, then gave other examples to back up my "speculation" as you called it. I was being honest and following the accepted rules of debate and logic, you, Sandy do not appear to be interested in either of those concepts.

Also, I thank Ryan and reiterate what he said in my defense while I was away from this thread.

B.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy,

I gave you an answer to the OP which was "How was a profligate sinner like Samson in God's good graces" or something to that effect with the IMO Biblically accurate answer of he did 2 things which many other hero's of the Bible did. He killed at God's command and he died at God's command.

When you didn't like my answer and said it was mere speculation I then cited names of other Biblical Characters who were considered to be held in high esteem by Him, and cited some of their deeds including specifically killings that they did at God's command. I even cited Book, Chapter and Verse where the tales of said deeds could be found in the Bible. I neglected to do the same for martyrs assuming that we could all agree that there have been numerous martyr's throughout the Bible and beyond.

Apparently you didn't care for that answer and began replying to me as if I had stated that killing in the name of God was the only way to get into God's good graces, which I never said, nor implied.

If you are afraid of my answers sir, then I recommend you cease to ask such scary questions. My answer to the OP was direct and on point and when questioned about my response I backed up my answer in this "Biblical Debates" forum with citation to the very Bible we are debating about. I don't know how much more in keeping with the spirit of this thread I could be.

My only conclusion can be that since I do not beleive in the Bible, you think I have no basis for debating anything Biblical.

I can however read the Bible, and have, and often do, and did so in preparing my second post on this thread. That you do not care for the answer, backed up by Scripture is your problem Sandy, not mine. The fact that you insist on ascribing things to me that I neither said, nor implied, however is a problem for me and one which I do not appreciate.

Killing in God's name and martyring yourself for God are both found extensively in the Bible and without fail those who are written about in the Bible doing either act are written about as if they are in God's good graces. You asked what allowed Samson to be in God's good graces, and I gave you a reasoned and Biblically accurate response, then gave other examples to back up my "speculation" as you called it. I was being honest and following the accepted rules of debate and logic, you, Sandy do not appear to be interested in either of those concepts.

Also, I thank Ryan and reiterate what he said in my defense while I was away from this thread.

B.

Reiterating your point doesn't make it any less full of crap. So now I will reiterate, The operative word for any action would be obedience not the specific action. That you are trying to equate killing as being a way to God's good graces is ignorant, inaccuarte and misleading. To deny this is your purpose is disengenuous.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Ok, then allow me to retort. You trying to say that people in the Bible did not kill at God's command is ignorant, innacurate and misleading. I have given several cites to support my position, and you seem to have no position supported by scripture in this entire thread, but instead prefer to make a personal attack against me because I am saying something you don't want to hear, even tho I have backed up what I have said with a source I would have thought you, as a self described Narrow Minded Biblicist would have taken as a relevant source.

If you wish to have an actual debate let me know, for personal attacks based only on a difference of opinion I can call up my ex wife.

B.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sigh,

Recall ye not the story of Gideon, one of the genuine heroes of the Old Testament? Judges chapters 6 - 8? Gideon translates as destroyer and mighty warrior. Was not Gideon called on to kill for God? Seems there was a pretty elaborate story about Gideon gathering together a large force that God pared down several times so that it would be clear that the victory would be attributed to God and not the large size of the forces gathered? And did not Gideon murder Zebah and Zalmunna following a battle?

Then there was Ehud, mentioned also in Judges at 3:12-4:1 who murdered King Eglon with a stealthily concealed double edged short sword, and later led his followers in a battle which resulted in the death of about 10,000 Moabite Soldiers. . .

Shamgar who killed 600 enemies of God's people with an ox goad, also found in Judges. . . .

Judah was supposed to have killed Jashub, then 1,000 men of Jashub's army (Mentioned in Genesis)

These are but a very few of the vast references to those held in high esteem that killed under the circumstances I alluded to in my earlier post. An exhaustive listing of both heroes and martyrs would likely take several pages. Is this enough evidence that I am not merely speculating Sandy or shall I give more examples?

B.

Very well said. Sampson obviously was in God's "good graces" because he killed people. Killing Philistines at the end of his life was his redeeming quality.

Judges 16:28-31

28 Then Samson called to the LORD and said, "O Lord GOD, please remember me and please strengthen me only this once, O God, that I may be avenged on the Philistines for my two eyes." 29 And Samson grasped the two middle pillars on which the house rested, and he leaned his weight against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other. 30 And Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines." Then he bowed with all his strength, and the house fell upon the lords and upon all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he had killed during his life. 31 Then his brothers and all his family came down and took him and brought him up and buried him between Zorah and Eshtaol in the tomb of Manoah his father. He had judged Israel twenty years.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sandy,

I gave you an answer to the OP which was "How was a profligate sinner like Samson in God's good graces"

Also, we should consider what Samson did that could be considered a sin in his context. He's not reprimanded by God for sinning in killing Philistines or other enemies of Israel, but the narrator criticizes him for breaking his Nazarite vow by telling his wife his weakness and having his hair cut.

Judges 16:15-20

"15 And she said to him, "How can you say, 'I love you,' when your heart is not with me? You have mocked me these three times, and you have not told me where your great strength lies."

16 And when she pressed him hard with her words day after day, and urged him, his soul was vexed to death. 17 And he told her all his heart, and said to her, "A razor has never come upon my head, for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If my head is shaved, then my strength will leave me, and I shall become weak and be like any other man." 18

When Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called the lords of the Philistines, saying, "Come up again, for he has told me all his heart." Then the lords of the Philistines came up to her and brought the money in their hands. 19 She made him sleep on her knees. And she called a man and had him shave off the seven locks of his head. Then she began to torment him, and his strength left him. 20 And she said, "The Philistines are upon you, Samson!" And he awoke from his sleep and said, "I will go out as at other times and shake myself free."

But he did not know that the LORD had left him."

But the strength of the Lord comes back when he calls on the Lord to defeat the enemies that the Lord originally told the Israelites to defeat.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ok, then allow me to retort. You trying to say that people in the Bible did not kill at God's command is ignorant, innacurate and misleading. I have given several cites to support my position, and you seem to have no position supported by scripture in this entire thread, but instead prefer to make a personal attack against me because I am saying something you don't want to hear, even tho I have backed up what I have said with a source I would have thought you, as a self described Narrow Minded Biblicist would have taken as a relevant source.

If you wish to have an actual debate let me know, for personal attacks based only on a difference of opinion I can call up my ex wife.

B.

You obviously have trouble reading simple sentences and understand them. Debate requires some understanding of language and meaning. Go back and review what I said. It's pretty clear what my meaning was.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sampson obviously was in God's "good graces" because he killed people.

Once again it is the act of obedience and not the actual act that is important.