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Samson: For Torath Mosheh Jews Only

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Could Torath Mosheh Jews explain to me their understanding of the account of Samson in the book of Judges 13:1 through 16:31? Because I recently read the entire account actually for the first time, and it raised more questions than I originally had before.

Additionally, I have heard some scathing criticisms of the account of Samson, but the questions that arose from those criticisms have been answered but replaced with even more questions. Therefore, I would appreciate your help.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Could you be more specific with what you are looking to understand?
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Could you be more specific with what you are looking to understand?

Thank you! Finally! Somone! lol :D But I'm going to use a English translation, but please feel free to show me if the Hebrew text says something different.

Also, ONE MORE VERY, VERY, IMPORTANT QUESTION! Is the book of Judges and the account of Samson considered to be a text that is inspired/dictated by Hashem?

But my first set of scriptures and my last post for this evening is Judges 14:1-4:

14 Samson went down to Timnah and saw there a young Philistine woman. 2 When he returned, he said to his father and mother, “I have seen a Philistine woman in Timnah; now get her for me as my wife.”

3 His father and mother replied, “Isn’t there an acceptable woman among your relatives or among all our people? Must you go to the uncircumcised Philistines to get a wife?”

But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me. She’s the right one for me.” 4 (His parents did not know that this was from the Lord, who was seeking an occasion to confront the Philistines; for at that time they were ruling over Israel.)

So, my first question is: So, Hashem is supposed to have put this whole thing in motion with Samson fraternizing with the Philistines, right?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you! Finally! Somone! lol :D
I'm a little confused because I replied only about 12 minutes after you posted this thread, but okay. Happy to feel welcomed.
Also, ONE MORE VERY, VERY, IMPORTANT QUESTION! Is the book of Judges and the account of Samson considered to be a text that is inspired/dictated by Hashem?
Yes. It is one of the books in the section of Tanach called "Nevi'im" or "prophets". So it was written by prophets using prophecy.
So, my first question is: So, Hashem is supposed to have put this whole thing in motion with Samson fraternizing with the Philistines, right?
Ironically, last night (my time zone) I just finished writing an article on the archeology of Timnah. It's in Hebrew, though.

So, my first question is: So, Hashem is supposed to have put this whole thing in motion with Samson fraternizing with the Philistines, right?
Yes. During the story of Shimson (Samson), we find that the Israelites were afraid to engage with the Plishtim (Philistines). The tribe of Yehudah (Judah) practically fall on their knees and beg for forgiveness from what they perceive to be Shimshon's troublemaking antics.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I'm a little confused because I replied only about 12 minutes after you posted this thread, but okay. Happy to feel welcomed.

Sorry, about that. But I was excited because of the version of this thread that I have for Jehovah's Witnesses, which has been up for several days with no posts in it.

Yes. It is one of the books in the section of Tanach called "Nevi'im" or "prophets". So it was written by prophets using prophecy.

Okay, thanks. Because I just wanted to be sure because there are some things in this account that I thought were a bit questionable.

Yes. During the story of Shimson (Samson), we find that the Israelites were afraid to engage with the Plishtim (Philistines). The tribe of Yehudah (Judah) practically fall on their knees and beg for forgiveness from what they perceive to be Shimshon's troublemaking antics.

Okay, but here's another question: So, it sounds as if Hashem has to maneuver all his doings with the Jews and neighboring nations through the Jewish nation rather than performing some sort of miracle himself... is that correct?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, but here's another question: So, it sounds as if Hashem has to maneuver all his doings with the Jews and neighboring nations through the Jewish nation rather than performing some sort of miracle himself... is that correct?
Depends when. I don't claim to know Hashem's full plan, but we can stop and think for a moment: The tribe of Yehudah, which was destined to rule, bore only one judge, Otniel. And that was way back in the beginning of the period of Judges. And though he had been successful in a few campaigns, he had not set up a long-lasting centralized Israelite government (in fact, the only judge (if he can be called that) who tried to do something like this was Avimelech, son of Gideon). Over 300 years later, and Otniel's tribe were cowering in the face of the might of the Plishtim. If he had set up a centralized government, maybe the situation would have been vastly different.

What sort of miracle could Hashem have done at this point? Magic away a centralized government? Force the Judahites to stand up to the Plishtim? These are things that go against the typical way that Hashem has made the world move along. So a more subtle approach was taken: Nominate a new hero/judge who would insist on meddling with the delicate Judahite-Plishtite diplomatic affairs, in hopes of pressuring the Judahites to stand up for themselves.

Unfortunately, though his death brought upon the death of many Plishtim, he ultimately failed in his endeavor. In fact, the final, sad note of his ultimately failed life's mission is the final verse of chapter 16:

"His brothers and all his father’s household came down and carried him up and buried him in the tomb of his father Manoah, between Zorah and Eshtaol. He had led Israel for twenty years."​

It was not the tribe of Yehudah that had the guts to go down and get his body from the rubble. It was his paternal relatives from the tribe of Dan.

But getting back to your question, there are only few instances in Tanach in which we see Hashem doing all the work. In fact, maybe only one instance - the Exodus. Usually things are more subtle.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Depends when. I don't claim to know Hashem's full plan. . .

What sort of miracle could Hashem have done at this point? Magic away a centralized government? Force the Judahites to stand up to the Plishtim? These are things that go against the typical way that Hashem has made the world move along. So a more subtle approach was taken: Nominate a new hero/judge who would insist on meddling with the delicate Judahite-Plishtite diplomatic affairs, in hopes of pressuring the Judahites to stand up for themselves.

I see. But for me, that's the thing. Because of my past experience with religion/faith/worship/relationship with God or Hashem or whichever way one would prefer to word that, there has always been a full plan or purpose of God. And for Christians, it is derived from the Hebrew text and Chrisian scriptures.

Also, I know that Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews don't have concrete beliefs on Olam Ha-Ba (if I am writing that correctly), however, I can't imagine that Hashem had been maneuvering the Jews during ancient history to become the human rulers of the world. Plus, mashiach hadn't even arrived yet in the days of the judges.

Unfortunately, though his death brought upon the death of many Plishtim, he ultimately failed in his endeavor. In fact, the final, sad note of his ultimately failed life's mission is the final verse of chapter 16:

"His brothers and all his father’s household came down and carried him up and buried him in the tomb of his father Manoah, between Zorah and Eshtaol. He had led Israel for twenty years."​

It was not the tribe of Yehudah that had the guts to go down and get his body from the rubble. It was his paternal relatives from the tribe of Dan.

But getting back to your question, there are only few instances in Tanach in which we see Hashem doing all the work. In fact, maybe only one instance - the Exodus. Usually things are more subtle.

Yes, I was going to eventually get to that and ask about that. But while we're there, why actually did Hashem's maneuvering fail? Was it because of Samson's endeavor with the Philistine prostitute? And which I guess, Samson took the Philistine fraternizing beyond what Hashem had originally intended?

Also, I'll post my next question from Judges in my next post.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
My next question is about Judges 14:5-6:

5 Samson went down to Timnah together with his father and mother. As they approached the vineyards of Timnah, suddenly a young lion came roaring toward him. 6 The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done.

Okay, I'll just come right out and ask the question: Isn't that a bit violent? Couldn't Samson have just punched the lion and knocked it out with his super strength? Also, I don't know what Hebrew word or concept that Jews use for 'spirit of the lord' but could 'it' have guided Samson with a more humane way of stopping this wild animal?
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
My next question is from Judges 14:19:

19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of everything and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he returned to his father’s home.

So, Hashem who is supposed to be able to read hearts (I think that the Jewish belief is that he can read hearts), deemed all the Philistines worthy of death? And I know that they are at war with the Israelites, but the 30 men that the 'spirit of the lord' allowed Samson to easily strike down, were not the men who pressured his wife to reveal the answer to his riddle.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
This post is not a question but a comment and anyone who is Jewish is welcome to reply to it. Also, there is no disrespect or offense intended, but Judges 15:1-3 says:

15 Later on, at the time of wheat harvest, Samson took a young goat and went to visit his wife. He said, “I’m going to my wife’s room.” But her father would not let him go in.

2 “I was so sure you hated her,” he said, “that I gave her to your companion. Isn’t her younger sister more attractive? Take her instead.”

3 Samson said to them, “This time I have a right to get even with the Philistines; I will really harm them.”

And I'm really sorry to say this, but with Hashem maneuvering things behind the scenes and with the way that Samson is getting upset and is about to perform a violent act against the Philistines, which includes animals, this kind reminds me more of Senator Palpatine in a Star Wars movie... Sorry. :(
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
My next question is about Judges 15:4-8:

4 So he went out and caught three hundred foxes and tied them tail to tail in pairs. He then fastened a torch to every pair of tails, 5 lit the torches and let the foxes loose in the standing grain of the Philistines. He burned up the shocks and standing grain, together with the vineyards and olive groves.

6 When the Philistines asked, “Who did this?” they were told, “Samson, the Timnite’s son-in-law, because his wife was given to his companion.”

So the Philistines went up and burned her and her father to death. 7 Samson said to them, “Since you’ve acted like this, I swear that I won’t stop until I get my revenge on you.” 8 He attacked them viciously and slaughtered many of them. Then he went down and stayed in a cave in the rock of Etam.

Hmmm. Okay, so, first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes? Also, I don't know what the Hebrew text at Judges 15:4 says, however, the above NIV version says that the foxes' tails were tied together. However, many English translations including Young's Literal Translation, says that torches were tied to the foxes' tails, which would make a bit more sense. Because if their tails were tied together and lit on fire, I don't see how the foxes could have lasted through that and have accomplished Samson's purpose. But even if torches were used, I think that it was still was cruel and to me, a form of animal abuse.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This post is not a question but a comment and anyone who is Jewish is welcome to reply to it. Also, there is no disrespect or offense intended, but Judges 15:1-3 says:



And I'm really sorry to say this, but with Hashem maneuvering things behind the scenes and with the way that Samson is getting upset and is about to perform a violent act against the Philistines, which includes animals, this kind reminds me more of Senator Palpatine in a Star Wars movie... Sorry. :(
Don't be sorry. It's perfectly fine to feel this way about the story. That's the whole point, in my opinion. Engage with the text, react to what's happening, and allow that to inform one's actions.

I haven't read judges in a while, though I remember having a similar ( although not identical ) reaction. If I have time over the weekend, I'll reread it and see if there's some positive elements that can be identified in this story.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
My next question is about Judges 15:4-8:



Hmmm. Okay, so, first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes? Also, I don't know what the Hebrew text at Judges 15:4 says, however, the above NIV version says that the foxes' tails were tied together. However, many English translations including Young's Literal Translation, says that torches were tied to the foxes' tails, which would make a bit more sense. Because if their tails were tied together and lit on fire, I don't see how the foxes could have lasted through that and have accomplished Samson's purpose. But even if torches were used, I think that it was still was cruel and to me, a form of animal abuse.
First, if I may, a good Jewish translation is available on the Chabad website. It's a massive website. The easiest way to locate a book from Tanach is to use google and search this way: "Chabad Judges Chapter#" For example, this episode can be found by searching for : "Chabad Judges 15". You may run into a tiny speedbump, because the name of the book will show up in its Hebrew equivilent. In this case, Judges in Hebrew is Shoftim. Learning these Hebrew titles is not too difficult. Wikipedia certainly has it. Looking up the entry on the book of Judges, or Isaiah, or Deuteronomy, whatever, should provide the Hebrew name of the book.

Now on to your questions. To answer these, I'm going to refer to a commentary called the Me'am Lo'ez, see here: ( link ) It's an old favorite among Sephardic Jews. It covers a tremendous amount of material, and is my go-to commentary because it always seems to have an answer regardless of the question.

"first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes?"

"Some say Sampson chased the foxes and caught them with his bare hands. This was another of his amazing feats of strength. But even if he trapped them, as others say, it was no mean accomplishment"

( Note: I'm not sure what is intended by "mean" accomplishment. I think it's "no meager accomplishment" )

"It does not say here that the spirit of God came upon him. That might mean that he accomplished this without divine aid and without the use of superhuman strength. On the other hand, the reason may simply be that by now it was self-understood, and could be assumed without being mentioned. The extra strength that God gave Samson was stated often enough in previous incidents so that it could be omitted this time.

It may also be that the divine strength that God granted Samson when he had to face those special challenges did not suddenly disappear as soon as they were over. It remained with him, perhaps weakening and fading as time went on, but never disappearing completely. It is therefore only mentioned when it first entered into him or was renewed."​

"Also, I don't know what the Hebrew text at Judges 15:4 says, however, the above NIV version says that the foxes' tails were tied together. However, many English translations including Young's Literal Translation, says that torches were tied to the foxes' tails, which would make a bit more sense. Because if their tails were tied together and lit on fire, I don't see how the foxes could have lasted through that and have accomplished Samson's purpose."

The Chabad website which use the Judaica Press translation has it this way:

"4 And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took torches, and turned tail to tail, and put one torch between (every) two tails in the middle.
The Me'am Lo'ez has it this way:

"Samson went and caught 300 foxes. He took torches and turned one tail toward another, and put a torch between the two tails in the middle. He set the torches on fire, and let them go in the standing grain of the Philistines."
The Da'ath Sofrim ( see here: link ) has it this way:

"Samson went and caught 300 foxes. he turned them tail to tail, took torches, and put one torch between each pair of tails. Then he lit the torches ond set [ the foxes ] loose n the Philistines' standing grain"
Robert Alter ( see here: link ) has it this way:

"And Samson went and caught 300 foxes and took torches and turned tail to tail and put one torch between each two tails. And he set fire to the torches and sent them in to the Philistines' standing grain"
So, no, it does not look like the Hebrew is saying that the tails were tied together. The word here is "וַיֶּ֤פֶן" which seems to be a derivative of "Jastrow, פְּנֵי I 1.

Tied is a different word, Jastrow, אֱסוּר See 2 Kings 7:10

ויבאו ויקראו אל־שער העיר ויגידו להם לאמר באנו אל־מחנה ארם והנה אין־שם איש וקול אדם כי אם־הסוס אסור והחמור אסור ואהלים כאשר־המה׃

And they came and called to the gatekeepers of the city; and they told them, saying, We came to the camp of the Arameans, and, behold, there was no man there, nor voice of man, but horses tied, and asses tied, and the tents as they were.
"if torches were used, I think that it was still was cruel and to me, a form of animal abuse."

Well. That's a very good point, and thank you for raising it. I'm not seeing anything in the commentary addressing this point. But the Me'am Lo'ez does discuss why foxes, and perhaps that will be helpful.

"Samson chose foxes to punish the Philistines, because when a fox is threatened he turns around and runs away. When he is chased he constantly changes his direction to try to trick his pursuers. The Philistines were sly and devious like foxes. The youths who had been chosen to be his companions betrayed him and tried to rob him. His father in law had taken away the daughter he had promised him and tried to give him another.

But how can you punish with a fox? A fox is a weak little animal. It would rather run away from a person than harm him. Samson made use of this very quality of deviousness. he tied them together in pairs and ties torches to their tails. The foxes each pulled in a different direction. Sometimes one would pull harder and they would go his way. Then the ther would pull harder and they would go the other way. Together they ran back and forth across the field until it was ablaze.

In this way foxes symbolized those who are false and treacherous. Even when they are bound together, each pursues his own selfish interests, without regard for the other. Eventually their lack of unity destroys everything. "

So, the foxes are an intentional choice, with an intentional message. The punishment fit the crime. This is the Jewish concept of middah-keneged-middah. Measure for measure justice.​
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I see. But for me, that's the thing. Because of my past experience with religion/faith/worship/relationship with God or Hashem or whichever way one would prefer to word that, there has always been a full plan or purpose of God. And for Christians, it is derived from the Hebrew text and Chrisian scriptures.
I don't think I said there wasn't a full plan. It's just that we don't know what it is. In Judaism it is also thought that Hashem has several possible ways of implementing the plan. This is the leeway we get as humans: We decide which possible way to go.
Also, I know that Torath Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews don't have concrete beliefs on Olam Ha-Ba (if I am writing that correctly), however, I can't imagine that Hashem had been maneuvering the Jews during ancient history to become the human rulers of the world. Plus, mashiach hadn't even arrived yet in the days of the judges.
As I said, there are a lot of options of how to bring about the realization of the plan. Things change depending on our choices.
Yes, I was going to eventually get to that and ask about that. But while we're there, why actually did Hashem's maneuvering fail? Was it because of Samson's endeavor with the Philistine prostitute? And which I guess, Samson took the Philistine fraternizing beyond what Hashem had originally intended?
When I said "failed in his endeavor" I was referring to Shimshon, not Hashem. By the way, if you prefer we refer to Him as God, I have no problem with that. I don't know that I'm in a place to be able to say that Hashem's plan failed. I prefer to focus on the choices that we made and continue making. God is, after all, an omnipotent, all-knowing entity. An anecdote to clarify this view:

A Hassidic rabbi was once walking with his students, when he suddenly whipped around and said: "Do you know what I would do if I were God?"
Excited, the students all crowded around him and asked: "What?"
The rabbi replied: "Same thing He's doing now. Why, you think I'm better than Him?"​

On the other hand, Shimshon who was attempting to get the Judahites to engage with the Plishtim, pretty much failed, at least in the short run. In the long run (about 120 years later), something interesting did happen: David, from the tribe of Judah, stood up to a giant Plishtite named Goliath. Did something Shimshon do somehow manage to crawl into the hearts of that tribe? Maybe. David then went on, of course, to become king of Yisrael.

Going back to Shimshon, yes, it seems that he enjoyed fraternizing with the Plishtim way too much. The prostitute isn't the best example, because it really was just a one-time thing and even then he used his escape to provide leeway for a full-blown attack from the tribe of Yehudah (by yanking off the metal doors of Gaza and using them to signal Yehudah to attack). But they let that opportunity slip away.

So the failure here is two-pronged: Shimshon got carried away with his fraternizing and the people he was trying to call to arms didn't answer his call.
The Tanach closes his story by stating that he was a judge for 20 years. We don't know most of what occurred during those years. We only have a handful of stories. But it seems that for 20 long years, he tried his best to crack Yehudah's frozen guts. David might hint that he managed to dent them at least a little.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
My next question is about Judges 14:5-6:



Okay, I'll just come right out and ask the question: Isn't that a bit violent? Couldn't Samson have just punched the lion and knocked it out with his super strength? Also, I don't know what Hebrew word or concept that Jews use for 'spirit of the lord' but could 'it' have guided Samson with a more humane way of stopping this wild animal?
Humane? For a dangerous wild animal? This was long before there was talk about wildlife protection. There were dangerous animals all over the land: Wolves, lions, panthers, bears, venomous snakes. If you had the bad luck of getting into a skirmish with one, you did what you had to do. As for the spirit of God, nowhere is it stated that that spirit pulled Shimshon's strings. It was kind of like a booster shot. By the way, it's also never stated that Shimshon's physique was that of this big, buff guy with rippling muscles. On occasion he enjoyed a lot of extra strength. But that says nothing about his appearance.

I'm sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for, but the Tanach's mentality is often at odds with the Western mindset.

Another note, as @rosends pointed out to me the other day, both Shimshon and David killed wild animals. David states that he used his sling to kill a lion and a bear (Shmuel 1:17:36).
My next question is from Judges 14:19:



So, Hashem who is supposed to be able to read hearts (I think that the Jewish belief is that he can read hearts), deemed all the Philistines worthy of death? And I know that they are at war with the Israelites, but the 30 men that the 'spirit of the lord' allowed Samson to easily strike down, were not the men who pressured his wife to reveal the answer to his riddle.
The commentator Radak says something interesting on the matter: As long as the People of Yisrael were under the control of the Plishtim, they were essentially at war with them. So killing some 30 people from Ashkelon meant striking a certain military blow against the Plishtite collective (if there was such a thing). I don't know about "deeming worthy of death" because I don't know what Hashem thinks about everything. Rashi states that when Moshe (Moses) turned to look around around before killing the Egyptian man, that means that he peered into that person' future and saw that no one who would become Jewish would be born from him, so his death would not be a loss. This is not the simple understanding of the verse, it's meant to signify an idea. Can the same be said of every time someone died in Tanach? I have no idea.
This post is not a question but a comment and anyone who is Jewish is welcome to reply to it. Also, there is no disrespect or offense intended, but Judges 15:1-3 says:



And I'm really sorry to say this, but with Hashem maneuvering things behind the scenes and with the way that Samson is getting upset and is about to perform a violent act against the Philistines, which includes animals, this kind reminds me more of Senator Palpatine in a Star Wars movie... Sorry. :(
I take it you really like animals. Not being an animal-rights activist, I'm not sure I'm the best person to address your questions.
Hmmm. Okay, so, first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes?
I have no idea. I'm not majoring in catching foxes.
My next question is about Judges 15:4-8:



Hmmm. Okay, so, first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes? Also, I don't know what the Hebrew text at Judges 15:4 says, however, the above NIV version says that the foxes' tails were tied together. However, many English translations including Young's Literal Translation, says that torches were tied to the foxes' tails, which would make a bit more sense. Because if their tails were tied together and lit on fire, I don't see how the foxes could have lasted through that and have accomplished Samson's purpose. But even if torches were used, I think that it was still was cruel and to me, a form of animal abuse.
Radak has an explanation, although I don't fully understand it. He says that a fox's habit is to turn around. Since both foxes kept turning around, their tails kept the torch in place.
I don't have anything more to say on this. It isn't stated anywhere what happened to the foxes afterwards. The Tanach tells us the key details of the story. Often we won't have any idea what happened in the aftermath, or any concrete background.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Don't be sorry. It's perfectly fine to feel this way about the story. That's the whole point, in my opinion. Engage with the text, react to what's happening, and allow that to inform one's actions.

I haven't read judges in a while, though I remember having a similar ( although not identical ) reaction. If I have time over the weekend, I'll reread it and see if there's some positive elements that can be identified in this story.

Thanks for the advice, dybmh.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Now on to your questions. To answer these, I'm going to refer to a commentary called the Me'am Lo'ez, see here: ( link ) It's an old favorite among Sephardic Jews. It covers a tremendous amount of material, and is my go-to commentary because it always seems to have an answer regardless of the question.

"first of all, how does one catch 300 foxes?"

"Some say Sampson chased the foxes and caught them with his bare hands. This was another of his amazing feats of strength. But even if he trapped them, as others say, it was no mean accomplishment"

( Note: I'm not sure what is intended by "mean" accomplishment. I think it's "no meager accomplishment" )

"It does not say here that the spirit of God came upon him. That might mean that he accomplished this without divine aid and without the use of superhuman strength. On the other hand, the reason may simply be that by now it was self-understood, and could be assumed without being mentioned. The extra strength that God gave Samson was stated often enough in previous incidents so that it could be omitted this time.

It may also be that the divine strength that God granted Samson when he had to face those special challenges did not suddenly disappear as soon as they were over. It remained with him, perhaps weakening and fading as time went on, but never disappearing completely. It is therefore only mentioned when it first entered into him or was renewed."​
Well, that is what I already wondered about in this account.

"Also, I don't know what the Hebrew text at Judges 15:4 says, however, the above NIV version says that the foxes' tails were tied together. However, many English translations including Young's Literal Translation, says that torches were tied to the foxes' tails, which would make a bit more sense. Because if their tails were tied together and lit on fire, I don't see how the foxes could have lasted through that and have accomplished Samson's purpose."

The Chabad website which use the Judaica Press translation has it this way:

"4 And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took torches, and turned tail to tail, and put one torch between (every) two tails in the middle.​
That would be what would make more sense to me. Therefore, one of the criticisms that I heard of this account decided to use an incorrect translation and did not even reason on this and did not do their homework.

"if torches were used, I think that it was still was cruel and to me, a form of animal abuse."

Well. That's a very good point, and thank you for raising it. I'm not seeing anything in the commentary addressing this point. But the Me'am Lo'ez does discuss why foxes, and perhaps that will be helpful.

"Samson chose foxes to punish the Philistines, because when a fox is threatened he turns around and runs away. When he is chased he constantly changes his direction to try to trick his pursuers. The Philistines were sly and devious like foxes. The youths who had been chosen to be his companions betrayed him and tried to rob him. His father in law had taken away the daughter he had promised him and tried to give him another.

But how can you punish with a fox? A fox is a weak little animal. It would rather run away from a person than harm him. Samson made use of this very quality of deviousness. he tied them together in pairs and ties torches to their tails. The foxes each pulled in a different direction. Sometimes one would pull harder and they would go his way. Then the ther would pull harder and they would go the other way. Together they ran back and forth across the field until it was ablaze.

In this way foxes symbolized those who are false and treacherous. Even when they are bound together, each pursues his own selfish interests, without regard for the other. Eventually their lack of unity destroys everything. "

So, the foxes are an intentional choice, with an intentional message. The punishment fit the crime. This is the Jewish concept of middah-keneged-middah. Measure for measure justice.​

But it sounds like the Me'am Lo'ez is trying to equate the deviousness of the Philistines to the natural behavior of a fox. Therefore, in my opinion, not a good answer.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I don't think I said there wasn't a full plan. It's just that we don't know what it is. In Judaism it is also thought that Hashem has several possible ways of implementing the plan. This is the leeway we get as humans: We decide which possible way to go.

But how can that be since the arrival of mashiach would be contingent upon the implementation of Hashem's full plan of Jewish rulership over the world? Therefore, going back to what I was inquiring about in my post #5, it still seems "as if Hashem has to maneuver all his doings with the Jews and neighboring nations through the Jewish nation," but there doesn't seem to be a clear reason as to why.

As I said, there are a lot of options of how to bring about the realization of the plan. Things change depending on our choices.

But if Jewish rulership over the world has to do with the arrival of mashiach, then it doesn't appear as if Jewish rulership has too much to do with the choice of ancient Jews. Therefore, my question still remains.

When I said "failed in his endeavor" I was referring to Shimshon, not Hashem. By the way, if you prefer we refer to Him as God, I have no problem with that. I don't know that I'm in a place to be able to say that Hashem's plan failed. I prefer to focus on the choices that we made and continue making. God is, after all, an omnipotent, all-knowing entity. An anecdote to clarify this view:

A Hassidic rabbi was once walking with his students, when he suddenly whipped around and said: "Do you know what I would do if I were God?"
Excited, the students all crowded around him and asked: "What?"
The rabbi replied: "Same thing He's doing now. Why, you think I'm better than Him?"​

On the other hand, Shimshon who was attempting to get the Judahites to engage with the Plishtim, pretty much failed, at least in the short run. In the long run (about 120 years later), something interesting did happen: David, from the tribe of Judah, stood up to a giant Plishtite named Goliath. Did something Shimshon do somehow manage to crawl into the hearts of that tribe? Maybe. David then went on, of course, to become king of Yisrael.

So, then all that we really have are maybes and speculations.

Going back to Shimshon, yes, it seems that he enjoyed fraternizing with the Plishtim way too much. The prostitute isn't the best example, because it really was just a one-time thing and even then he used his escape to provide leeway for a full-blown attack from the tribe of Yehudah (by yanking off the metal doors of Gaza and using them to signal Yehudah to attack). But they let that opportunity slip away.

So the failure here is two-pronged: Shimshon got carried away with his fraternizing and the people he was trying to call to arms didn't answer his call.
The Tanach closes his story by stating that he was a judge for 20 years. We don't know most of what occurred during those years. We only have a handful of stories. But it seems that for 20 long years, he tried his best to crack Yehudah's frozen guts. David might hint that he managed to dent them at least a little.

So, no answers as to why God used the method of operating behind the scenes and using Samson's anger, emotions, and rage to get his plan accomplished. Because Samson had to resort to some of the worst types of emotions to implement God's plan.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Humane? For a dangerous wild animal? This was long before there was talk about wildlife protection. There were dangerous animals all over the land: Wolves, lions, panthers, bears, venomous snakes. If you had the bad luck of getting into a skirmish with one, you did what you had to do. As for the spirit of God, nowhere is it stated that that spirit pulled Shimshon's strings. It was kind of like a booster shot. By the way, it's also never stated that Shimshon's physique was that of this big, buff guy with rippling muscles. On occasion he enjoyed a lot of extra strength. But that says nothing about his appearance.

I'm sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for, but the Tanach's mentality is often at odds with the Western mindset.

lol :smile: No, it is not. But while we're on the subject, what you said reminded me of a video that I watched that I would like to post in this thread. And I know that the title uses the word "Christianity" in it, and I know that some Jewish members at this forum like to say that they don't know anything about Christianity, however, this video does discuss the general concept of God creating the animal kingdom and animal suffering itself, therefore, I believe that this video is relevant to my reply to your quote. Also, I will skip the introduction and post the link starting at the 2:32 mark in the video. It's a 20 minutes and 12 seconds video, but I would recommend anyone reading this thread to watch it. Also, I think that it would merit its own thread and its own discussion.

Another note, as @rosends pointed out to me the other day, both Shimshon and David killed wild animals. David states that he used his sling to kill a lion and a bear (Shmuel 1:17:36).

Yeah, but they didn't tear those animals to pieces like you would a piece of paper. :rolleyes: Also, what about Hebrew text verses such as Proverbs 12:10, Exodus 23:12, 2 Samuel 12:3-4, Deuteronomy 22:4, and Exodus 23:5?

The commentator Radak says something interesting on the matter: As long as the People of Yisrael were under the control of the Plishtim, they were essentially at war with them. So killing some 30 people from Ashkelon meant striking a certain military blow against the Plishtite collective (if there was such a thing). I don't know about "deeming worthy of death" because I don't know what Hashem thinks about everything. Rashi states that when Moshe (Moses) turned to look around around before killing the Egyptian man, that means that he peered into that person' future and saw that no one who would become Jewish would be born from him, so his death would not be a loss. This is not the simple understanding of the verse, it's meant to signify an idea. Can the same be said of every time someone died in Tanach? I have no idea.

Hmmm. o_O


Radak has an explanation, although I don't fully understand it. He says that a fox's habit is to turn around. Since both foxes kept turning around, their tails kept the torch in place.
I don't have anything more to say on this. It isn't stated anywhere what happened to the foxes afterwards. The Tanach tells us the key details of the story. Often we won't have any idea what happened in the aftermath, or any concrete background.

It's just a really strange story and the foxes is a particularly strange detail of that story.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
My next post will be a comment on Judges 15:11:

11 Then three thousand men from Judah went down to the cave in the rock of Etam and said to Samson, “Don’t you realize that the Philistines are rulers over us? What have you done to us?”

He answered, “I merely did to them what they did to me.”

Even if the Israelites are at war with the Philistines, Samson's behavior, attitude, and what he says doesn't sound godly to me. But instead, it sounds vengeful, violent, and vindictive to me. And all the while, I am thinking that this is what God has maneuvered.
 
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