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Same source of I in everyone

atanu

Member
Premium Member
There has never been a time when animals did not eat animals or men did not kill men. This is nature, wherein the operative principle is “I am this body-mind, different from all others and different from the universe that I see”.

But the scriptures of all religions, contrary to the apparent separateness of all beings, teach of a non-dual substratum-source-refuge for the apparent diversity. One example from the Holy Quran will suffice.

Holy Quran 2.213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that herein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

In my opinion, it is the nature of human beings to lust for the satiation of "otherness" in a search for "self." From the moment of birth, when we are cut from Mother, we seek to rationalize the trauma of separation. If one is to be "other" ... well, then, one must strive to be BETTER than the alternative. Yet, this has nothing to do with the spiritual dictates put forward by the religions as specified by their Holy texts. However, the interpretation of these texts to and by the masses then takes on the nature of the human beings doing that interpretation, and become profane.

We Hindus, are taught to experience the common existence-consciousness, known as Brahman, immanent through all and yet transcendental to the whole of spacetime. This is non-dual peace. This knowledge is expressed in an Upanishad.

Isha Upanishad
6. He who sees all beings in the Self and the Self in all beings, he never turns away from It (the Self).
7. He who perceives all beings as the Self for him how can there be delusion or grief, when he sees this oneness (everywhere)?

There has never been a time when the man has not hated man and the man has not killed the man. Through history, people have fought wars based on artificial boundaries of man versus man, man versus woman, class versus class, caste versus caste, nation versus nation, and religion versus religion. We know of world wars. We know of socialist revolution/s that intended to correct inequity but that gave rise to coercive rulers and ruling classes. We know of religious minority pogroms in many countries, especially in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and also in India. We know about violence against caste and against women.

Whatever the superficial cause, all violence and hatred stem from the false sense of separateness that we are helplessly bound to because of the very existence of our mind-senses. All sense of hatred stems from the ego-sense “I am this body-mind separate from everything else”.

So. What is the cure for hatred? Can hatred be conquered by hatred? Can violence be conquered by violence? Most Hindus in India burn with indignation about the violence and inequity, and hatred meted out to minority Hindus in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Similarly, many Muslims, if not most, the world over nurse grudge or hatred of other religions. This is such poison that every incidence is generalised in terms of ‘Us versus Them’ and the hatred breeds hatred. Political parties exploit ‘Muslim’ or “Hindu’ terms in their very name. They exploit the heated up sense of nationality. These parties do not teach spirituality. Neither the social gurus who support one or other of these parties dependent on identity politics are working for godly peace on earth.

So. We acknowledge that heinous crimes against humanity, minority, women, people of so-called lower caste are happening daily everywhere. But is the reverse identity politics or nursing hatred ever an answer? I do not think so.

The answer comes from all scriptures. I cite one example from the Gita which teaches:

Bhagavad Gita 5.18
The truly learned, with the eyes of divine knowledge, see with equal vision a Brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater (BG 5.18).

Recognising, even if intellectually, the common source of “I” making in all fellow humans, and all beings, can get us rid of our instinctive hatred of the other and benefit us all — individually and socially. This is spiritual socialism, in my opinion.
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
The answer comes from all scriptures. I cite one example from the Gita which teaches:

Bhagavad Gita 5.18
The truly learned, with the eyes of divine knowledge, see with equal vision a Brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater (BG 5.18).
I would expect "Eye of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Advaita) and not "Eyes of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Dvaita).
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I would expect "Eye of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Advaita) and not "Eyes of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Dvaita).

Should one translate or interpret scripture to conform to one's own personal philosophy?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Partially. One should also allow one's own personal philosophy be transformed by reading scripture.

So how does one decide which parts of scripture should conform to one's philosophy and what parts of one's philosophy should be transformed to conform with scripture?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I would expect "Eye of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Advaita) and not "Eyes of Divine Knowledge" (indicating Dvaita).
If you have a master, then you are in "Dvaita" (Duality). :)
Partially. One should also allow one's own personal philosophy be transformed by reading scripture.
Hinduism allows a complete transformation, if reasonable. Debate decides it. :)
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
There has never been a time when animals did not eat animals or men did not kill men. This is nature, wherein the operative principle is “I am this body-mind, different from all others and different from the universe that I see”.

But the scriptures of all religions, contrary to the apparent separateness of all beings, teach of a non-dual substratum-source-refuge for the apparent diversity. One example from the Holy Quran will suffice.
...

I don't think the scriptures of all religions teach this, and I cannot see it in the quote you gave from the Quran.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
So how does one decide which parts of scripture should conform to one's philosophy and what parts of one's philosophy should be transformed to conform with scripture?
how come scripture, if it is the pure word of the divine, is so ambiguous and prone to only some people "getting it" which then everybody who "doesn't" then is looked "down" upon as being "unable" or "divergent and ill" or some such denigrating adjectives?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That was the point of the OP.

I don't know what that answer means in relation to what I said, which was that I don't see that all scriptures teach what you say they do.
>>But the scriptures of all religions, contrary to the apparent separateness of all beings, teach of a non-dual substratum-source-refuge for the apparent diversity.<<
And I don't see it in the Quran quote you gave.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I don't know what that answer means in relation to what I said, which was that I don't see that all scriptures teach what you say they do.
>>But the scriptures of all religions, contrary to the apparent separateness of all beings, teach of a non-dual substratum-source-refuge for the apparent diversity.<<
And I don't see it in the Quran quote you gave.

Scriptures are layered. Among Hindus, 50% will vouch by the ‘dualistic’ messages and in Islamic tradition, I think, 90 will only see that Allah and the creation are two different.

I will further explain but first kindly tell me what you get from the Quran verse that I cited.

(And remember I tried to generalise my statement as much as possible by mentioning ‘substratum/source/refuge’.)
...
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Scriptures are layered. Among Hindus, 50% will vouch by the ‘dualistic’ messages and in Islamic tradition, I think, 90 will only see that Allah and the creation are two different.

I will further explain but first kindly tell me what you get from the Quran verse that I cited.

(And remember I tried to generalise my statement as much as possible by mentioning ‘substratum/source/refuge’.)
...

Holy Quran 2.213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that herein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

That might mean something like: Allah sent his word to teach the truth and keep everyone in agreement but we disagreed with each other on it's meaning because we hated one another. But Allah will guide believers to the truth and agreement.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Holy Quran 2.213. Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that herein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

That might mean something like: Allah sent his word to teach the truth and keep everyone in agreement but we disagreed with each other on it's meaning because we hated one another. But Allah will guide believers to the truth and agreement.
Why do you ignore the very first sentence?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Recognising, even if intellectually, the common source of “I” making in all fellow humans, and all beings, can get us rid of our instinctive hatred of the other and benefit us all — individually and socially
This is contradicted by the practical experience we have of Hindus engaging in all of the things you have listed above.

Since many/most Hindus believe this we should see that Hindus are mostly freer of these crimes than other peoples, but we don't as far as I can tell.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
This is contradicted by the practical experience we have of Hindus engaging in all of the things you have listed above.

Since many/most Hindus believe this we should see that Hindus are mostly freer of these crimes than other peoples, but we don't as far as I can tell.

Hindus are certainly not free of natural instincts, although that is the goal of Vedantic teachings.

For example. If you frolic with a lady in your dream, you are bound to be excited or even lose your semen — helplessly. That is the play of NATURE (prakriti).

I tried to underline this point in the OP. It is very natural to be affected by the mind-sense created multiplicities, but all religions teach us to look deeper at the single strand that unites all multiplicity.

India has been traditionally tolerant. But the environment is such that everywhere the rightist narrative has gained ground. India is no exception. Hindu minority population in Bangladesh and Pakistan has reduced 10 fold in last 30 years due to discrimination, hatred, violence. Temples-Gurdwaras have been destroyed. Hindus have been killed and driven out of Kashmir. Christian evangelicals also spend hugely to convert Hindus to Christianity. It is inevitable that the fundamentalist actions will be met with rightist fundamentalist reactions.

In the last 10 years liberal voices have been silenced in India and a poisonous divisive narrative has been imposed by the rightist party at power.

My post was an attempt to show that religions do not teach the hatred that politicians spread in the name of religions.

...
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Why do you ignore the very first sentence?

OK so I'll add it.

Mankind were one community and
Allah sent his word to teach the truth and keep everyone in agreement but we disagreed with each other on it's meaning because we hated one another. But Allah will guide believers to the truth and agreement.
 
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