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Featured Salvation

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    I sugguest you study the Hebrew scriptures for they have a great deal to say about salvation and how man needs a mediator. The very first sacrifice in the Bible and that was pleasing to Jehovah was a sheep.

    When the Mosaic law covenant was established there was a great deal about mediating between Jehovah and the people and their sins. In fact the very first thing Jehovah had Moses establish was the tabernacle wherein he placed the courtyard of sacrifices, the Holy compartment in the tent and the Most Holy.

    I will share just a couple things here for you about where the Christian idea of a mediator came from (inspired by Jehovah God of course).

    202020371_univ_cnt_1.jpg

    Here you have the depiction of the tabernacle. Now you will notice two alters. One was small and placed inside the Holy compartment right outside the curtain of the Most Holy. This one was used for burning incense. Why did God want incense burned before him? It was a well pleasing aroma, and incense represents the prayers of Jehovah's servant that are pleasant to him. The priests were to pray on behalf of the people every day.

    What about the bigger alter? It was a lot bigger than the one for burning incense and was placed right outside the Holy in the courtyard. There the priests were to offer up sacrifices for the sins of the people daily. Its location in front of the sanctuary reminds us that faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus is necessary for acceptance by God.

    You made the claim in your OP that a Jew was able to approach Jehovah without a mediator, but in the Mosaic law an Israelite was never allowed to approach Jehovah without a sacrifice. In fact the day of Atonement symbolically represented the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You should read up on what that day meant for it was one of the most sacred days of the year under the Mosaic law, and that is the only time the High Priest was allowed to enter into the Most Holy compartment to offer up a burnt sacrifice first for his sins and then for the entire nation before Jehovah.

    Sin offerings made by the Israelites and the various features of the yearly Day of Atonement undoubtedly impressed upon their minds the seriousness of their sinful state and their great need of complete atonement. However, animal sacrifices could not completely atone for human sin because beasts are inferior to man, who was given dominion over them.

    "As used in the Bible, “atonement” has the basic thought of “cover” or “exchange,” and that which is given in exchange for, or as a “cover” for, another thing must be its duplicate. Thus, anything making satisfaction for something that is lost or forfeited must be “at one” with that other thing, completely covering it as its exact equivalent. There must be no overlapping and no coming short. No imperfect human could provide such a covering or atonement to restore perfect human life to any or all of mankind. (Ps 49:7, 8) To make adequate atonement for what was forfeited by Adam, a sin offering having the precise value of a perfect human life would have to be provided.
    Jehovah God instituted an arrangement for atonement among the Israelites that typified a greater atonement provision. It is Jehovah and not man who is to be credited with determining and revealing the means of atonement for covering inherited sin and providing relief from the resulting condemnation to death.
    "-Biblical Encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures on Atonement.




    202020401_univ_cnt_1.jpg


    All of the offerings and sacrifices stipulated in the temple arrangement pointed toward Jesus and the ransom sacrifice he was to give or the benefits from that sacrifice.

    Just as the animals, under the Law, were to be sound and unblemished, Jesus sacrificed his perfect, unblemished body.

    Just as burnt offerings were presented in their entirety to God, Jesus gave himself wholly to Jehovah.

    Just as those who offered an acceptable communion sacrifice were at peace with God, the anointed who share in the Lord's Evening Meal are at peace with God.
     
    #41 Eyes to See, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  2. SeekerOnThePath

    SeekerOnThePath On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam

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    Abrahamism is anti-Anthropomorphic, that is why it exists in the first place.
    Ok, leaving aside your erroneous interpretation of offerings....


    What you're saying is that, God had people using animals for offerings (as ancient people all did) and then God decided to incarnate into the body of a human to go on a suicide mission so that you didn't have to use animals for offerings anymore but still did everything else to repent and seek forgiveness from God?

    It's very counter-intuitive (aside from how mangods don't mesh well with the God of Abraham and Israel very well).
     
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  3. Eyes to See

    Eyes to See Active Member

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    None of this is my interpretation:

    (Hebrews 9:11-14) . . .However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have already taken place, he passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us. 13 For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?


    (Hebrews 9:23-28) 23 Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. 25 This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.

    The typical representations were the priesthood and its temple and sacrifices. Do you know what a type is? The antitype is the real temple in heaven, Jesus Christ as the High Priest. I did not make these interpretations. Holy Scripture does.

    Jesus is the son of God. He is not God. And he did not incarnate. That was not the requirement of God's justice. A perfect human had lost his perfection, another perfect human needed to be offered in exchange. Jesus was transferred from God's right hand to the womb of Mary and was born a human. He was not incarnated. Maybe you don't know what that means.
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    It is a commandment but yes it can be used to mean a good deed within a specific context.
     
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  5. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    I will first present the formal Catholic view.

    First there was the "fall"

    The reason why we need salvation is the sin at the beginning of humanity.

    By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act. (Catechism)
    So this resulted in the fallen (wounded) human nature - fallen from its original holiness (image of God). Consequences - impaired overall harmony (in man and in relations man - God, man - man, man - creation).

    As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence"). (Catechism)​

    From God comes salvation

    God did not abandon man after the fall. Salvation is restoration of man. It didn't start with Jesus. The whole Bible is history of salvation.

    It is in Christ, Redeemer and Savior, that the divine image, disfigured in man by the first sin, has been restored to its original beauty and ennobled by the grace of God /... /

    1707 "Man, enticed by the Evil One, abused his freedom at the very beginning of history."10 He succumbed to temptation and did what was evil. He still desires the good, but his nature bears the wound of original sin. He is now inclined to evil and subject to error:
    Man is divided in himself. As a result, the whole life of men, both individual and social, shows itself to be a struggle, and a dramatic one, between good and evil, between light and darkness.11

    1708 By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us.

    1709 He who believes in Christ becomes a son of God. This filial adoption transforms him by giving him the ability to follow the example of Christ. It makes him capable of acting rightly and doing good. In union with his Savior, the disciple attains the perfection of charity which is holiness. Having matured in grace, the moral life blossoms into eternal life in the glory of heaven. (Catechism)
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Everyone dies.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Yes they can. See what I said earlier in the thread about Jews who cannot use the Temple. Also not every sin comes with a punishment or sacrifice. To repent of those one needs no mediator.

    Only within Christian theology.

    Yes.

    It doesn't have to be animal sacrifices. There are meal offerings for those too poor for animals. Animals/blood are not the only acceptable way.

    Again, only within your theology.

    He was circumcised. Then he was beaten bloody and stuck on a cross. He was not sacrificed by any proper means according to Torah and nor could he be as he was a human. Human sacrifice is never acceptable.
     
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  8. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Sin is connected to the law. Sin is only imputed where there is a law. For example, in some states in the USA, marijuana is legal and in other states it is illegal. Only the states where it is illegal; law, is it a civil sin, since only they have laws against it. When the law is removed sin is not imputed.

    Law is symbolized, in Genesis, by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the tree associated with Satan. Satan is connected to law. Like law, Satan is a binarius; good and evil. The devil is just evil, but Satan was good and evil.

    Adam and Eve lose paradise because of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the same as accepting law as their guide, instead of the faith of instinct, since law was connected to Satan. Satan, in the old Testament was in charge of the earth and humans. He was the Lord of the Earth.

    Satan was often mistaken for God the father. Rather, Satan was similar to a CEO who worked for God. He was in charge of day to day operations. The atheist discontent with the God the Old Testament; cruel, is based on that character actually being Satan, and not God the father, due to the binarius of Satan and law.

    Jesus did away with law and thereby voided the Old Testament contract with Satan. He did this through two approaches. The first approach was forgiveness of sins. If sin is forgiven, then the law has no power. Law needs punishment to be effective. If the punishment i made void so is the law. Forgiveness was a backdoor way to neutralize the law, by neutralizing the sin that law imputed. If you were caught speeding, but the officer forgives you, it is like you are above or beyond the law.

    The second strategy was based on the legal concept of double jeopardy. Death is the pinnacle punishment, since after the death penalty, once one is dead and there is nothing of you that is left to punish. When dead, one is not longer under the law, since you are dead and there is no further manmade punishment that can be given to you, that will make any difference in your social training.

    When Jesus is tortured and dies on the cross and is resurrected, the new him is no longer under law, due to double jeopardy. He had already suffered the terminal punishment allowed by law. The resurrected Jesus was free from law. This out foxed Satan and began a disturbance in the heavens. Satan would eventually be thrown from heaven, as discuss in Revelations. The CEO of the old Testament got the boot and Jesus took over his Job. He had a different management approach for humans; faith in the inner voice of modern instinct. Return to paradise.
     
  9. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Yes, for most men this is usually very hard to follow. :oops:
    Jesus was less strict in outer aspects and more strict in inner aspects.

    The above seems less impossible if we don't equate temptation and sin (when you give in temptation). When someone just passes your door is not the same as when you open the door and invite someone in.
     
  10. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    This goes only for gnostic take on Christianity.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That's because you have no Spiritual understanding why Jesus Christ came into the world for.
    What is the world doing that Jesus came and gave his blood in our place..
    What does the law of God required.
     
  12. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Definition in Catechism:

    Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."​
     
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  13. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    No, I haven't; hence my question.

    Nothing, because no man can give his blood for another man's no matter what.

    Quite a few things.
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Maybe you need to rephrase what you said and what I quoted? As understood, the answer is correct.

    #36
     
  15. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Now my personal take. I don't believe in original sin. Living beings died and attacked each other before humans walked the earth. It's a natural thing and nature is meant to evolve and become more and more filled with spirit. Humanity has a purpose to overgrow animalistic tendencies and bring in the next step - love, peace, bliss, knowing Truth, human virtues... (spiritual awakening). This can only be realized in free will. This potential also entails the potential to diverge away from purpose (sin originally meant to miss the mark) and do terrible things...

    When critical mass of spiritual awakening will be reached (possibly in a cataclysm because of violent resistant force) a new global spiritually enlightened culture will emerge. I think this will be what Jewish prophets called "the Kingdom of God". Sprouts of it are already growing. When the time is ripe there will be a harvest ("judgements"). The gates will close for some. Some will make it (be saved) some will be moved to an other place to continue the path.

    Jesus preached repentence - preparing for the Kingdom. He set/corrected the course like John the Baptist and prophets before him (and various other saints and sages across the world). As a realized being he didn't just show the way but also manifested it...
     
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  16. Goddess Kit

    Goddess Kit Active Member

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    Catholicism seems to be the only Christian sect that needs a mediator between the individual and god.

    Otherwise, the majority of Christianity believes the individual can speak directly to god.
     
  17. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Why do you think so?
     
  18. Goddess Kit

    Goddess Kit Active Member

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    Answering in the form of a question indicates that either you have a Christian sect in mind other than Catholicism that follows the mediation between individual believer and deity or you are clueless while just pretending to be smart by responding with a question.
     
  19. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Nothing of the sort. I am just a member of the Catholic Church and we talk (pray) directly to God. I was just wondering where did you get your misinformation.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hi again.....
    I think that Jesus and the Baptist did offer salvation... in the way of cleansing and redemption, for nothing. If folks went to the Temple for it they got ripped off of all their savings, and so they were intercepted on their way and redeemed free of charge and could go home feeling good and with their savings.
    I think that is what got turned in to Christian Salvation later. But that's just me and my thoughts on it.
     
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