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Salvation

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Adam is only a "son of God" because he too is a creation of God.....he was not produced through a mother, just a creation of the Father.
not buying that

Adam is a chosen son

Man was created...Day Six
male and female
no names
no garden
no law
go forth...be fruitful.....multiply

Day Seven....rest
and nothing more will be created

Chapter Two is NOT a retelling of Chapter One
separate events

Eve is the ONLY person not born of woman
no navel
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
not buying that

Adam is a chosen son

Man was created...Day Six
male and female
no names
no garden
no law
go forth...be fruitful.....multiply

Day Seven....rest
and nothing more will be created

Chapter Two is NOT a retelling of Chapter One
separate events

Eve is the ONLY person not born of woman
no navel

So, let me get this straight.....Adam was not a created son of God? Where did he come from then?
Was he not part of the mandate to "fill the earth" with his wife who had to "become the mother of everyone living"? (Genesis 3:20)

To my knowledge, Genesis ch 2 is a history (towledah) of man, filling in details of some events not mentioned in ch 1. (Genesis 2:4)

towledah......meaning....
  1. descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies
    1. account of men and their descendants
      1. genealogical list of one's descendants

      2. one's contemporaries

      3. course of history (of creation etc)
    1. begetting or account of heaven (metaph)
H8435 - towledah - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (NASB)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How do you come to this conclusion?
I thought it was obvious.

Chapter One ends without a garden event
no names
no law
no tree.....no test

Adam is PLACED in the garden
he had an existence prior

eve is a clone.....yes she is
no navel....not born of woman

and then after the test.....Cain finds a wife
he builds a city

seems like there were other people wandering
in that land of Nod
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I thought it was obvious.

Chapter One ends without a garden event
no names
no law
no tree.....no test

Adam is PLACED in the garden
he had an existence prior

eve is a clone.....yes she is
no navel....not born of woman

and then after the test.....Cain finds a wife
he builds a city

seems like there were other people wandering
in that land of Nod

There are several problems I see in your proposed scenario....

1) No other humans could exist before Eve, since Adam said she had to "become the mother of everyone living". (Genesis 3:20)

2) All humans had to descend from just these two in order to make Romans 5:12, true.

3) Jesus was said to be the "last Adam" because he bought back what Adam lost for his children....perfect, sinless human life. His sacrifice balanced the scales of God's perfect justice...."a life for a life". No descendant of Adam could do the job, because all were now plagued by the stain of sin. (1 Corinthians 15:22; 45)

4) If humans had lived before Eve, then they would not have been subject to sin and therefore would not have received the penalty of death. Only sin produces death.

Apparently Adam was placed in the garden that God had planted as a 'blueprint' of what the whole earth would ultimately become as they populated the planet and extended the boundaries of their paradise home. There he was educated by his God and he observed and named all the animals. He was alone in this situation for an undisclosed period so the final creation on the 6th day was a delight to him...at last "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh".
There was work to do and God gave them a wonderful start with everything they could possibly need.....but free will had to be harnessed and all had to learn where their own boundaries were so as not to impinge on the free will of others. With the interference of a rebel spirit, things took a turn for the worst. This one abused his free will and thus began an object lesson that would affect not only humankind, but all of God's spirit sons as well. A time a great testing began.

Since there are no time frames to establish how old Cain and Abel were at the time of Abel's murder, the Genesis account mentions "sons and daughters" born to Adam and Eve. Since females are not often named in the scriptures, (e,g. Noah's wife and daughter's in law) even though their presence may have been an important part of the story, it was the lineage of sons that was mentioned in the genealogies. It is very possible that daughters were born to Adam and his wife and that time elapsed enough for daughters to be interspersed between the sons.

Cain and his brother were old enough to have established themselves as distinct personalities before God by the time of the first murder. Their firstborn was not a good man and God's warning to Cain was interesting.....Cain had to alter his course of his own free will....but he allowed jealousy to overtake him to the point of pre-meditated murder.

God only spared him because there was so little numbers of humans to "fill the earth" as he instructed.

Cain's wife could well have been an unnamed sister, since God sent him away to populate a place that was far away from where the rest of the human race would come through Seth. There were no laws on incest at that time....and no way to populate the earth if there was.

Our lives are lived with free will, and God will not alter our actions as we build a reputation with him. We reap what we sow, but all are shackled by Adam's sin. He alone could have changed the course of human history, but he abused his free will and we are all caught in the fallout. Jesus has redeemed us by "becoming the ultimate sacrifice".... a perfect life offered in exchange for the perfect life that Adam denied us.

Until I really studied the Bible, none of this ever made sense to me. IMO, your scenario removes the reason for Christ's sacrifice.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
IMO, your scenario removes the reason for Christ's sacrifice.
back to salvation....

Man as a species.....Day Six
was not surviving the last breath
no spirit
no soul
and with only that snatch and grab for a life style.....no hope

The garden event altered the mind and body
and to keep the alteration in place ...Adam's mate was a clone
(Adam himself complained......no suitable mate)

what came out of the garden was human......one step more than animal

as for the cross

Jesus saved no one by dying
His salvation is found in His ministry
His parables

and you are not a refection of heaven without His teachings

how else to fit in?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
back to salvation....

Man as a species.....Day Six
was not surviving the last breath
no spirit
no soul
and with only that snatch and grab for a life style.....no hope

How do you figure that with what is written in Genesis? Not surviving what last breath? How was there no "soul" when God said he had filled the earth with them.....animals are "souls" too. They live and breathe...that's what a "soul" is.
The same spirit that animates all of them is sustained by breathing. When the last breath leaves the body, all souls die. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

The garden event altered the mind and body
and to keep the alteration in place ...Adam's mate was a clone
(Adam himself complained......no suitable mate)

what came out of the garden was human......one step more than animal

Again the sequence of events in this scenario is out of kilter.

The creative days were not 24 hour periods, but eons of time to complete all that God intended to do in each period. He concluded each "day" with an expression of his satisfaction, thus far.
With the creation of humans, the only creatures made in his image, God increased his level of satisfaction to "very good" and this was after the creation of the woman. So six days of creation were a complete success....the 7th day was another story. The seventh day is the only one without a declaration from God concerning its outcome......why? Because it isn't finished yet.

as for the cross
I do not believe that Christ died on a cross or that this image should adorn anything connected with him. It is an ancient symbol with very grubby roots. It is basically the symbol of the anti-Christ.

Jesus saved no one by dying
You have to ignore a lot of scripture to make a statement like that. Many people just don't understand how Jesus' death paid a "ransom" to free the whole human race. (Hebrews 10:12-14)

His salvation is found in His ministry
His parables

and you are not a refection of heaven without His teachings

His parables were a teaching tool, illustrations to help his audience grasp the concepts he was trying to impart to his listeners. He was first and foremost a teacher but all that he taught came from his Father. He already knew that he would be offered as a sacrificial Lamb and willingly volunteered anyway, such was his love for mankind.

how else to fit in?

Why would you want to "fit in" if heaven is not your calling? (Hebrews 3:1)
Only a chosen few are in line for life in heaven and these the Bible says will be "kings and priests" assisting Christ as Commander in Chief in his heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) They are all chosen by God personally.

Their role is to bring redeemed mankind back to God. (Revelation 21:2-4)

God's first purpose was to have a superior race of beings on earth to represent him as caretaker of all the earthly creation. That is why we were given his qualities. Death was not supposed to happen, but it was introduced by the disobedience of one man, and re-instituted by the obedience of another. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

There is still 1,000 years of the Kingdom's rule to go before God declares the 7th to be like the 6th...."very good".
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I do not believe that Christ died on a cross or that this image should adorn anything connected with him. It is an ancient symbol with very grubby roots. It is basically the symbol of the anti-Christ.
I wear a ring of my own making
a cross on stainless steel

I do so as a constant reminder
condemnation is result of man-made law
and this world will condemn anyone

even if you CAN walk on water
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
He already knew that he would be offered as a sacrificial Lamb and willingly volunteered anyway,
nay.....
He simply understood what would happen a s result of His ministry

He said so as He approached the City with Passover pending
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
With the creation of humans, the only creatures made in his image, God increased his level of satisfaction to "very good" and this was after the creation of the woman. So six days of creation were a complete success....the 7th day was another story. The seventh day is the only one without a declaration from God concerning its outcome......why? Because it isn't finished yet.
Man was created on Day Six

male AND female

Chapter Two is a separate event
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I wear a ring of my own making
a cross on stainless steel

I do so as a constant reminder
condemnation is result of man-made law
and this world will condemn anyone

even if you CAN walk on water

If you understand the origin of the cross as a religious symbol, you would avoid all contact with it.

It was never a symbol for Christianity until the 4th century when pagan Roman Emperor Constantine (in 312 C.E.) while on one of his military campaigns, supposedly had a vision of a cross superimposed on the sun along with the motto in Latin “in hoc vince” (by this conquer). Some time later, a “Christian” sign was emblazoned on the standards, shields, and armor of his army......so prior to the 4th century there was no symbol for Christianity (except maybe the fish, but it too was pagan in origin) and seeing as how it came from a sun-worshiping pagan emperor, (who never converted to Christianity until on his deathbed).....how could it possibly be from God?

Bloodshed went against every teaching of the Christ, who taught us to "love our enemies" and to "pray for them". (Matthew 5:43-45) Constantine was a blood-spiller. (Isaiah 1 :15)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Man was created on Day Six

male AND female

Chapter Two is a separate event

Not separate events at all.....ch 2 supplies details that ch 1 omits....it fleshes out some detail about the humans. Male and female were both created towards the end of the 6th day, which was not a 24 hour period.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not separate events at all.....ch 2 supplies details what ch 1 omits....it fleshes out some detail about the humans. Male and female were both created towards the end of the 6th day, which was not a 24 hour period.
nay....Day Six is ....evolution

and a tweak was needed.....the garden event
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
and the Carpenter said.....

Take up your cross and follow Me

so I've heard

He never said that. He said to take up his "stauros" which is not a cross....it is an upright stake upon which the savior was impaled by having his hands and feet run through with nails. The Romans had different configurations in the instruments of torture they used.
The other word used in the scriptures to indicate the instrument of death is "xylon" which is translated "tree".

To 'take up your stauros' means to be willing to suffer or to even die for a righteous cause. Jesus died to set us free from the curse Adam pronounced on us. He said that there was "no greater love" we could demonstrate than to give up our lives for the ones we love. Like taking a bullet for someone, even though you would never fire one.

nay....Day Six is ....evolution

and a tweak was needed.....the garden event

Evolution??? How did that get into the conversation? I see no evolution even hinted at in the Bible.
God created, directly and with purpose...just as he said he did. Who are we to tell him what he did, or how he did it? He tells us.

His parables are sufficient .....as is

no one needs to add to them
or reduce them

and without them ....you are not a reflection of Him

The parables are a favorite teaching tool of the Christ, but if they fail to be interpreted correctly, can be meaningless...or even dangerous if you don't get the point.

The rich man and Lazarus is a prime example.....one of the most misinterpreted and misunderstood of Jesus' parables.
Tell me what you think it means....?
 
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