Salvation in the scriptures, the born again movement

[Katzpur]

I like to say that life is my practice.

LOL! I'm practicing that all the time!

 

[allfoak]

LOL! I'm practicing that all the time!

Yup
It's universal.

 

[omega2xx]

Thank you for sharing your anecdotal evidence, but that does not prove anything.

Truth is truth no matter where it is found. There is no evidence or facts that disprove the claims made in the Book of Mormon.

You should not judge the Book of Mormon without reading it.

Should I judge the Bible based on the claims made by a "Christian" without actually reading the Bible?

Read the Book of Mormon. Come to know what it actually claims.

It is not necessary to read the book of Mormon. When you find several things that the Bible contradicts, it is illogical to continue using both of them. Also much of the teaching of you so-called prophets are also contradicted in the Bible, yet you still honor them.

--Joseph Smith aided Jesus in the work of creation--Mc Conkie
--God is not omnipresent--Talmage
--Adam fell that men might have joy--II Nephi 2:2
--Those not baptized with water are damned---DC 84:74

 

[Muffled]

Yeah, salvation ain't a car wash.

If it were my granddaughter would be a Christian instead of an agnostic having been immersed in Bear Brook by the church elders.

 

[Muffled]

Seems you are not familiar with "once saved, always saved" theology.

I believe I am quite well informed on the subject. What leads you to think otherwise?

 

[Muffled]

Seems you are not familiar with "once saved, always saved" theology.

I believe I am quite well informed on the subject. What leads you to think otherwise?

Well, lets look at this "THEORY" , Lets look at what the bible state on this "THEORY" Assuming the bible is the basis for your beliefs. I have had a number of pastors try to use the book of Romans and some of Pauls words there. So, let me ask you , why do you think this is a mere theory ?

I believe you want it straight from Jesus so here it is:
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

 

[look3467]

Biblical or not, traditionally or not, does not one get saved.

What does get one saved is the renewal of our dead spirits. Termed "Born again".

Adams beginnings resulted in his becoming separated due to his individuality as a god.

In other words, of no fault of Adam, because of intelligence, as a god, separation made Adam an individual entity apart from God. And so all of his offspring after his kind. (Separation means death or in other words, heavens doors closed and therefore an impossibility for any of Adams offspring ability to re-enter heaven. So, technically, dead in spirit.)

The only possible way back to the Creators Heaven was for the Creator Himself do the work of redemption. Which He did in the form of a body created just for that purpose.

Enter: Jesus.
Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

God inhabits Jesus' body with His Spirit and not with Adams spirit and therefore not alienated, as Adam.

God therefore in Jesus redeems the world unto Himself as He alone can do.

The question now is, can we believe it? If yes, then our spirit has already been renewed. But if not, then we should seek to.

We have a life time on earth to find Him and have eternity start the moment of conception (Spiritual conception of our spirits renewal) and live yet while in the skin a life of fulfillment in Him. Otherwise, the end of life on earth will lead us to His feet, and then and only then will we realize that Jesus is our God and was all the time.

Don't let anyone dictate whether you are saved or not........know who you are in Jesus and He will set you free of all your fears.

Blessings, AJ

 

[pearl]

Understanding how the Bible we have now has evolved over the years, or recognizing what the Protestant Reformers also recognized?

I don't think the original Reformers would recognize today's reformed churches.

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).


Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

All three of the first reformers, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, accepted and defended this doctrine completely. So, if the Catholic Church believes in this doctrine and the reformers believed in this doctrine–by whose authority and when was this doctrine rejected by all the Protestant Churches?

Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)

John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639


Luther's initial contempt was for the selling of indulgences.

 

[pearl]

Fortunately, is it God alone who saves, not the Church, not a Book, not a religion. But God alone who knows the heart, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc, including the Atheist are saved through Christ even if they do not acknowledge him as savior. Karl Rahner presented a theory of Anonymous Christianity through which those are saved following their conscience. It is ridiculous for anyone to sit in judgment of another concerning salvation.

 

[Baroodi]

The concept of (saved) in Christianity is out of any logic, deluding and funny. Someone can be labelled as saved while he or she is commiting bad sins as someone had died for him and shouldered the hardship off him. This makes none sense.

 

[look3467]

The concept of (saved) in Christianity is out of any logic, deluding and funny. Someone can be labelled as saved while he or she is commiting bad sins as someone had died for him and shouldered the hardship off him. This makes none sense.

Labeling someone as saved is God via His Holy Spirit in the renewal of a dead spirit regardless of circumstances.
Salvation is a free gift with merit from any individual.
Absolutely now work required...Save acceptance.
We, on the other hand make judgements based on our beliefs, be it right or wrong.
Gods salvation for humanity was based on the obedience to the letter of the law by only one man........Jesus.
It is His righteousness that replaced all of ours that granted all of us salvation via the rebirth of our dead spirit. Spiritually speaking.
The ones who have accepted Jesus' work for salvation are spiritually transformed.
Blessings AJ

 

[kjw47]

Heres a scripture that describes salvation in the bible.

Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)


The born again movement started in the 60s according to my grandmother who was born and raised up in the Baptist church. My Mom was too.

The Baptist and Community churches, nondenominational and many bible churches teach that responding to an alter all and accepting Jesus as Lord into your heart is how you get saved and you must respond to an alter call to do it. If you do it at home you must express it as and use the accepting Jesus as Lord into your heart.

This is not in the bible, it says nothing about accepting Jesus as Lord it says you must believe on him confess him as Lord and the Trinity isn't in there it doesn't say pray to him either or that hes God. ANyways forget I said that, that's another argument. But talking about the born again movement.

My Grandmother Mommie Ingram told me that before the 60s, the way they got saved was believing on Jesus repenting of sins and responding to an alter call to get baptized and join the church, accepting Jesus wasn't a part of it. If you join the church publically your making a public expression of faith on Jesus.

SOme would say that I'm being picky and theres nothing wrong with the idea of using the sinners prayer or accepting Jesus as Lord to express what the bibles talking about that. Ok I agree but theres a problem.

A lot of Baptists and many I know believe not so much that you have to belong to the Baptist church but that you have to express yourself at an alter call and use the expression accept Jesus and respond to an alter call to be saved.

They also say including my sister who admits she maybe wrong but many wrongly believe United Methodists Catholics Episcapalian, Christian churches and the like wont go to heaven because they don't accept Jesus as lord and offer an Alter Call to accept Jesus.

SO my problem isn't so much the actual act of using that alter call as much as it is that its just not required by the bible, Faith in Jesus and God saves you.Repentance also.

SO my issue is that they teach it as something that is required to get saved.

My second problem is this. The born again movement started making people get resaved over and over again and respond to alter calls over and over after they sinned. My Mom quit the Baptist church because she use to respond over and over to alter calls and then go to the beer store on the way home and get drunk( she was a recovering alcoholic) again.

And she also wouldn't go back because after she got clean and sober at AA,she accepted the fact that she got saved at the age of 8 and has been saved her whole life, once saved always saved.

The churches are teaching people to get saved and resaved and its wrong, she said I'm not going back to church and getting resaved which is what they would require me to do I'm already saved.

Rom 10:9-10-- is talking about the real Jesus. There are different Jesus' being taught in this world.


One must endure until their end( death or Har-mageddon) to get saved( Matt 10:22)--no living being has done either.

I attended Baptist church years ago-- while I was yet a drunkard, drug addict, fornicating thief the preacher said if you say 3 lines of prayer, you are born again( saved) = pure lie
Ephesians 4:22-24 is clear on how one is really born again--they strip off the old personality( worker of iniquity) and put on the new personality( righteousness) -- that is washing ones robe white.
Mr Osteen tells thousands of workers of iniquity at a time that lie--and they go through life believing they are saved and its not truth.

 

[Muffled]

I don't think the original Reformers would recognize today's reformed churches.

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).


Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

All three of the first reformers, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, accepted and defended this doctrine completely. So, if the Catholic Church believes in this doctrine and the reformers believed in this doctrine–by whose authority and when was this doctrine rejected by all the Protestant Churches?

Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)

John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)

Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639


Luther's initial contempt was for the selling of indulgences.

I believe ML was referring to the fact that Mary did not have relations with Joseph during her pregnancy.

I believe the scriptures refute that concept.

I believe that is contrary to scripture also.

I believe there is no reason to believe that reformation theologians are any better than any other theologians. I disagree with Calvin on quite a few things but then there is more to disagree with because his writings are extensive.

 

[Muffled]

Fortunately, is it God alone who saves, not the Church, not a Book, not a religion. But God alone who knows the heart, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc, including the Atheist are saved through Christ even if they do not acknowledge him as savior. Karl Rahner presented a theory of Anonymous Christianity through which those are saved following their conscience. It is ridiculous for anyone to sit in judgment of another concerning salvation.

Ro 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Phil. 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If someone says He is saved by Allah, then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If someone says he is saved by Jehovah, then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If someone says he is saved by Brahman then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If a person says he is saved by Sat then that is not the name by which a person is saved.

 

[Muffled]

The concept of (saved) in Christianity is out of any logic, deluding and funny. Someone can be labelled as saved while he or she is commiting bad sins as someone had died for him and shouldered the hardship off him. This makes none sense.

I believe that is not the Christian concept of salvation but it certainly has been the opinion of its detractors.

 

[pearl]

If someone says He is saved by Allah

Are you aware that before Islam both Jews and Arab Christians addressed God as Allah?

If someone says he is saved by Jehovah, then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If someone says he is saved by Brahman then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If a person says he is saved by Sat then that is not the name by which a person is saved.

Is it really your intent to condemn all of humanity, that does not believe as you do, not 'saved'? God is the only judge. Let God be God. You cannot tell Him who to save.

 

[kjw47]

Ro 10:13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Phil. 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If someone says He is saved by Allah, then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If someone says he is saved by Jehovah, then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If someone says he is saved by Brahman then that is not the name by which a person is saved. If a person says he is saved by Sat then that is not the name by which a person is saved.

God( YHWH(Jehovah) gave Jesus the name above other names---but never above Gods name. It is YHWH(Jehovah) who does all of it through Jesus( Acts 2:22-John 5:30) so in reality--it is YHWH(Jehovah) who is doing the saving through Jesus.
Is it not clear---One must go through Jesus and get to the Father--to accomplish this--John 4:22-24)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Fortunately, is it God alone who saves, not the Church, not a Book, not a religion. But God alone who knows the heart, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc, including the Atheist are saved through Christ even if they do not acknowledge him as savior. Karl Rahner presented a theory of Anonymous Christianity through which those are saved following their conscience. It is ridiculous for anyone to sit in judgment of another concerning salvation.

Yes, indeed, it is HaShem alone who saves but He does not work alone in the achievement of our salvation. Not because He can't but because of man's nature aka his Freewill. So, three entities work together for the salvation of man. HaShem aka the Divine Entity, the son of man aka the human entity and the Law aka the contract between HaShem and man. If man lives according to the contract between HaShem and man, salvation is guaranteed. Why people don't take this seriously? Because they want to achieve salvation doing what they please. It is called baking a cake and eating it too which doesn't go that way.

 

[pearl]

If man lives according to the contract between HaShem and man, salvation is guaranteed. Why people don't take this seriously? Because they want to achieve salvation doing what they please. It is called baking a cake and eating it too which doesn't go that way.

Those faithful to their respective covenants with God are saved. But I think that there are differences as to religious concept of sin and real guilt before God.

 

[kjw47]

Those faithful to their respective covenants with God are saved. But I think that there are differences as to religious concept of sin and real guilt before God.

The bible is clear on sin--Heb 10:26-- Jesus sacrifice does not cover any who practice sin.
Jesus taught at Matt 7:21-23--- Only those living now to do his Fathers will, get to enter his kingdom and goes on to say--he never even knew one who practices sin( worker of iniquity( lawlessness)
1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21-- teaches--those who do these sins will NOT enter Gods kingdom--- yet the majority on earth do these daily.