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Salvation in the scriptures, the born again movement

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It is an interesting idea that it does not matter to God which day we set aside to be different from the others. However, God already set aside one day. He worked six days and set aside the seventh. He did not say we should pick any day we want. He said remember the seventh.
If I am observing every seventh day as a holy day, I believe God's pleased with my behavior, regardless of which day I use to start counting with. But if you see it differently , then you should definitely observe a Saturday Sabbath. (I believe God puts a great deal of stock in how much integrity we have in trying to live according to what our consciences tell us.) I just can't help but wonder if over the many thousands of years since God set forth that commandment, our calendars have been so accurate that we're actually worshiping on the seventh day anyway. It actually seems pretty unlikely to me that things haven't gotten messed up over the thousands of years since the Ten Commandments were given. For instance, did you know that as far back as the 6th century B.C. (when the Jews were being held captive by the Babylonians), the Babylonians would occasionally change the number of days in their week, probably to keep their calendars in sync with the phases of the moon. For example, sometimes they'd have three 7-day weeks and then follow it by a 8-day week. I can easily see how someone might think it was the last day of the week, and it was really the first. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but that's how I see it.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I can certainly see your point that the days may have been messed up over the many years since creation. However, if you go into almost any church around and ask what day they worship on, almost all will say the first day of the week. Maybe God judges us by what is in our hearts and how hard we are trying to do the right thing. But if He said we should remember the day He rested, why would 99 percent of churches proudly say they honor the first day of the week? Is there some particular reason not to honor the seventh day?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I can certainly see your point that the days may have been messed up over the many years since creation. However, if you go into almost any church around and ask what day they worship on, almost all will say the first day of the week. Maybe God judges us by what is in our hearts and how hard we are trying to do the right thing. But if He said we should remember the day He rested, why would 99 percent of churches proudly say they honor the first day of the week? Is there some particular reason not to honor the seventh day?
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but since Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the "first day of the week," the members of the early Christian Church began to commemorate that day as their Sabbath. I would agree with you that, technically, we have no record in the Bible authorizing this change. On the other hand, I do believe Jesus' Apostles, personally chosen by Him, were given the authority to preside over His Church. Whether He specifically told them to gather together to break bread on the weekly anniversary of His resurrection, we don't know. But I do believe He was still communicating to them through revelation, even after His ascension. Now if this change had been implemented a few hundred years later, I would probably be questioning it as you are. But I believe His Apostles were acting with His approval.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
You have opened a whole new can of worms. The Bible does not say Jesus rose on the first day of the week. It says something like "early in the morning on the first day of the week, when Jesus was risen." Was risen is not the same as rose. Was risen means the action is completed. Jesus was already risen early on the first day of the week. Did he rise five minutes earlier or several hours earlier? The tomb was empty Sunday morning and no one saw him rise. Do you have any Bible verse that says he rose and not he was risen on Sunday? Thanks for some interesting ideas but I do not think you can find anything that proves Jesus rose on the first day of the week.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You have opened a whole new can of worms.
For who? Me? I'm sorry, but it really doesn't. He rose from the dead. That's all that is truly important, as far as I'm concerned.

The Bible does not say Jesus rose on the first day of the week. It says something like "early in the morning on the first day of the week, when Jesus was risen." Was risen is not the same as rose. Was risen means the action is completed. Jesus was already risen early on the first day of the week. Did he rise five minutes earlier or several hours earlier? The tomb was empty Sunday morning and no one saw him rise. Do you have any Bible verse that says he rose and not he was risen on Sunday?
No, I don't. Does this mean you win? ;)

Thanks for some interesting ideas but I do not think you can find anything that proves Jesus rose on the first day of the week.
Okay. I probably can't. And if He did, in fact, rise at 11:59 PM on Saturday, what difference does it make in my life? I guess I just don't see what's worth arguing about.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
No there is nothing to argue about. It is just another example of people twisting things to match their beliefs instead of matching their beliefs to the Bible. People celebrate the first day of the week because they say Jesus rose on the first day of the week but the Bible does not teach that. I am not saying anyone wins. People will continue to believe what they want and will try to twist Bible verses to agree with what they want to believe.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
No there is nothing to argue about. It is just another example of people twisting things to match their beliefs instead of matching their beliefs to the Bible. People celebrate the first day of the week because they say Jesus rose on the first day of the week but the Bible does not teach that. I am not saying anyone wins. People will continue to believe what they want and will try to twist Bible verses to agree with what they want to believe.
Wow. I'm not quite sure what to say to that accusation. I guess it's a good thing that I'm trying to please God rather than you.

By the way, it would certainly be useful if you were to start using the quote function. It makes it a lot easier for people to follow who's saying what to whom.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
His real teachers teach -ALL that Jesus taught. As well as every utterance from God--for all to live by daily.

Dear 47,
And who are these "real teachers" (plural)? And I thought Paul, along with giving you "teachers", released you from the "Law" (Romans 7:6). Are you saying what God has written by his own finger does not apply, yet the babble of some Pharisee does?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I believe one should let me know when he finds one. I never have and certainly not a JW teacher who is so far from the truth that Jesus taught that it would be amusing if it were not for the fact that it is a sorry state of affairs.


Jehovah will show all very soon, Babylon the great is about to fall.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but since Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the "first day of the week," the members of the early Christian Church began to commemorate that day as their Sabbath. I would agree with you that, technically, we have no record in the Bible authorizing this change. On the other hand, I do believe Jesus' Apostles, personally chosen by Him, were given the authority to preside over His Church. Whether He specifically told them to gather together to break bread on the weekly anniversary of His resurrection, we don't know. But I do believe He was still communicating to them through revelation, even after His ascension. Now if this change had been implemented a few hundred years later, I would probably be questioning it as you are. But I believe His Apostles were acting with His approval.

The day any group comes together for worship is traditional, not Biblical. Worship should be 24/7/364. You can take leap day off if you want a day off from worship.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The day any group comes together for worship is traditional, not Biblical. Worship should be 24/7/364. You can take leap day off if you want a day off from worship.
I'm sure you'd like everybody to believe that you're worshiping God when you're sawing logs at 2:00 A.M. and having some kind of a bizarre dream or when you go into the bathroom to do your business, but you're not going to convince me. As far as I'm concerned the Sabbath Day should be treated differently from the other six days of the week, no matter which day a person chooses to observe it.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
What ever day people choose to worship does not change the commandment to remember the seventh day. I do not see why it is such a problem. God said he worked six days and rested on the seventh and he wants people to remember and honor that day. But everyone looks for any possible reason not to do what God wants them to do.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What ever day people choose to worship does not change the commandment to remember the seventh day. I do not see why it is such a problem. God said he worked six days and rested on the seventh and he wants people to remember and honor that day. But everyone looks for any possible reason not to do what God wants them to do.
You must be a Seventh-day Adventist. Nobody's looking "for any possible reason not to do what God wants them to do." That's an awfully narrow-minded way to look at differences in interpreting the God's word. Do you seriously believe that all of the rest of us are just trying to be disobedient? Jeesh!
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I have tried my best to find some reason why people do the opposite of what God says and the only thing I can come up with is deliberate disobedience. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from one tree and they came up with all kinds of reasons to go ahead and eat it anyway. That is what people have been doing ever since. I have no arguement with you personally or anyone else but it just seems like everyone looks for reasons why they do not need to do what God says. I am not a member of any church but think God's rules should be followed.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I'm sure you'd like everybody to believe that you're worshiping God when you're sawing logs at 2:00 A.M. and having some kind of a bizarre dream or when you go into the bathroom to do your business, but you're not going to convince me.

Everyday does not mean all day, and I am not trying to convince you of anything.

As far as I'm concerned the Sabbath Day should be treated differently from the other six days of the week, no matter which day a person chooses to observe it.

Right, we need to remember it and keep it holy.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
I have tried my best to find some reason why people do the opposite of what God says and the only thing I can come up with is deliberate disobedience. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from one tree and they came up with all kinds of reasons to go ahead and eat it anyway. That is what people have been doing ever since. I have no arguement with you personally or anyone else but it just seems like everyone looks for reasons why they do not need to do what God says. I am not a member of any church but think God's rules should be followed.

Now, please, tell me, do you think Adam and Eve would challenge God in His own house, so-to-speak? Of course, that was a Catch-22; a command which is given to be obeyed by doing the opposite! HaShem must have been happy about His creation to have caught so fast the meaning of His Words.

Ignorance is an abomination in the Lord's sight. When Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge, it was the Lord's catch-22 to rather enhance man's appetite for the tree of knowledge. If the prohibition were to be observed, the fruit of that tree would not have been so enticing and the tree would not have been planted in the center of the garden to call the attention of all. And the Lord would not have employed the services of the serpent to explain that they had misunderstood the command which had been meant to be rather the opposite. As Adam and Eve realized what the Lord really meant, the abomination of ignorance had been neutralized.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
What ever day people choose to worship does not change the commandment to remember the seventh day. I do not see why it is such a problem. God said he worked six days and rested on the seventh and he wants people to remember and honor that day. But everyone looks for any possible reason not to do what God wants them to do.

LWS, the establishment of the Sabbath as a commandment to keep it holy was not for HaShem but for man. The command to work six days and rest on the seventh, was not for God but for man. I hope you are not being literal when, as in the text above, you say that God worked six days and rested on the seventh. That was only a Jewish act of embellishment to enhance the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Only man needs to work six days to make a living and rest on the seventh day.
 
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