Saints in the Catholic Church

[rojse]

How do saints fit into Catholic theology? What is the use of directing prayers at saints when you can pray directly to God? And why are some purported miracles attributed to God, while others are attributed to one saint or another?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I recently wrote this in response to a similar question in another thread:

The Saints are all the people who have died in the peace of Christ and attained to the vision of heaven. Because the Church is a single Body- Christ' Body- built up from Himself and founded and made strong on the gift of His Body and Blood- all those Christians who have died in Christ remain in communion with the Christians who are living.

This we call the Communion of Saints. This means there are members of the Church who are in heaven, and to whom we Christians here on earth are still joined in the unity of the Church.

Thus, we constantly rely on the prayers of our heavenly brothers and sisters because they are in an exceptional position to obtain intercession with God, no longer being obstructed by the falleness of the world, but enjoying the unobstructed vision of God in heavenly glory.

In otherwords, I ask my fellow church members to pray for me, and I wake up every day knowing that I am part of the Mystical Body of Christ, whose members offer up prayers for my strength throughout the world in the Holy Mass and in private prayer.

The Saints are Christians who, though having died, are still joined to me in this mystical union of the Church. Since they behold a vision of God that is more clear than you or I or anyone on earth, their prayers are even more efficacious. They have attiained salvation, whereas the rest of us have not, and they are joined to God to a degree that is beyond our imagination.

These people do not cease to be united to us, nor do they cease to pray for us, as all Christians should pray for one another and for the world.

God permits miracles to occur in their name, so as to point to true union that the family of God shares and to draw attention to the exceptional lives of these individuals, who stand as models of the Christian life. We pray to them, we imitate them, we tallk with them. The story of their lives offer us great hope that we can know God like they do.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, I was going to answer this in detail, but it's hard to add anything to Jordan's excellent response.

I will add one small detail though. Many people who are not Catholic confuse prayer with worship. Prayer is not necessarily worship - though we may worship WHILE we pray. Prayer is communication - interaction with the other being. So when a person prays to a saint, they are not cutting God out of the mix so to speak, nor are they giving something to the saint that they ought to give to God. They are simply asking for the intercession of the saint - as we ask other Christians to pray for us, to intercede for us.

It's an interesting concept.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Well, I was going to answer this in detail, but it's hard to add anything to Jordan's excellent response.

Aw. sorry for stealing your thunder Kathryn!

I will add one small detail though. Many people who are not Catholic confuse prayer with worship. Prayer is not necessarily worship - though we may worship WHILE we pray. Prayer is communication - interaction with the other being. So when a person prays to a saint, they are not cutting God out of the mix so to speak, nor are they giving something to the saint that they ought to give to God. They are simply asking for the intercession of the saint - as we ask other Christians to pray for us, to intercede for us.

Yes, this is a noteworthy point. Us Christians who do pray to the Saints are often accused of giving something to human beings which we owe to God, but this is far from the truth!

Intercession among Christians [whether heaven or earth] is only made possible through the mediation of Jesus Christ, because it is by His Paschal Mystery that we are all joined into this mysterious and wonderful unity in the first place.

 

[rojse]

Thus, we constantly rely on the prayers of our heavenly brothers and sisters because they are in an exceptional position to obtain intercession with God, no longer being obstructed by the falleness of the world, but enjoying the unobstructed vision of God in heavenly glory.

Is a prayer is judged on the merits of said prayer? Or the person who makes it?

And since God is meant to hear all prayers (or is this incorrect?) why do you need a saint to help get the prayer to God's (metaphorical) ears?

 

[Kathryn]

Rojse,

Only God knows the heart and the motive of the person offering up the prayer. To say whether or not a prayer is "judged" is, I think, maybe not using the right term. I believe that God listens to all prayers, and He knows what motivates us to pray. I think it is more important that WE examine our own heart and our own motives rather than worry about whether our prayer is "good enough" for God to listen to it. He listens to all. But prayer is a two way communication - we are to listen for God's response as well. In other words, God is not a vending machine. The purpose of prayer is not to allow us to make demands of God, or to beg Him for things. The purpose is two way communication and gaining wisdom and insight into situations.

As for asking others to pray for us, including saints - the Bible is full of examples of such. Prayer within the Body of Christ strengthens the communion of the saints.

 

[rojse]

Rojse,

Only God knows the heart and the motive of the person offering up the prayer. To say whether or not a prayer is "judged" is, I think, maybe not using the right term. I believe that God listens to all prayers, and He knows what motivates us to pray. I think it is more important that WE examine our own heart and our own motives rather than worry about whether our prayer is "good enough" for God to listen to it. He listens to all. But prayer is a two way communication - we are to listen for God's response as well. In other words, God is not a vending machine. The purpose of prayer is not to allow us to make demands of God, or to beg Him for things. The purpose is two way communication and gaining wisdom and insight into situations.

As for asking others to pray for us, including saints - the Bible is full of examples of such. Prayer within the Body of Christ strengthens the communion of the saints.

But I don't quite get the post you have made here - it seems to be a contradiction. The first part is that God listens to all prayers, and knows the motivations behind them. I understand that as well as I am able to, as an atheist. But the second paragraph seems to contradict that - if God listens to all prayers and knows the motivations behind them, what is the point of having others pray for us - unless the person in question is mentally unable to themselves?

 

[Kathryn]

God is all knowing and omnipotent. However, He allows us to discover His will, and to learn through that discovery. He allows us the freedom to choose right or wrong, and He works both outside and within our choices.

He also encourages the communion of the saints, for our strength and good and the building of our faith and cameraderie.

Prayer among the members of the Body of Christ edifies us in many ways. When we pray for the needs of another person, it builds our character. It gets the focus off ourselves. When we ask another person or saint to pray for us, it helps us admit that we need to help of others, that we're not autonomous. It helps our character to have to humble ourselves and ASK for help and guidance.

You know, as an objective, rational person, one thing I really hate is to have to admit I need help with something - with ANYTHING. I HATE to feel weak or to admit that I can't do something on my own - whether it's work or family related. But objectively, I realize that's mostly my pride talking.

To be able to ask for and accept help graciously is very humbling. It's good for our souls and our character.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All baptized Christians are Saints , in the original use of the word.

Anglicans do not have Saints in the way Catholics do. we do have "Saints Days" where we Honor past Saints and other worthy Christians listed in the Annual Church Calendar.

I see no difference in Praying for the help of an "official Catholic Saint" and Praying to any other departed Christian.

We do not see that any one can be made a Saint by a church ceremony. If God ever elevates someone to a special category, it is done with out our help or direction. But I do not know of a biblical reference to this being done by either Jesus or his followers.

Any references seem to refer to all Christians being raised as saints.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The Feast of All Saints celebrates all Saints who the Church may have failed to recognize.

Any Christian in heaven is a Saint. The official Saints of the Church are those whom we have been able to identify because their place in heaven has been demonstrated to us.

But one is certainly free to pray to any departed Christian whom they believe have entered into heaven, that is how the cause for Sainthood, the communal recognition of a person's status as a Saint, gets started.

 

[catholiclady]

Well, let's clarify something here.
A saint is anyone in Heaven.
A Saint (capitalized) is someone who has been canonized by the Church as an example of how people should live their lives, as well as been proven to have intercessory power with God.
Catholics pray to saints so the saints will present our petitions before God. Saints do not actually answer our prayers by following the request - God does. The saints simply help us by praying for us the way any human friend might.

 

[Tom Terrific]

But I don't quite get the post you have made here - it seems to be a contradiction. The first part is that God listens to all prayers, and knows the motivations behind them. I understand that as well as I am able to, as an atheist. But the second paragraph seems to contradict that - if God listens to all prayers and knows the motivations behind them, what is the point of having others pray for us - unless the person in question is mentally unable to themselves?

This may help.

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." James 5:16.

People who are in heaven are presumably at the top of the righteous ladder, so their prayers are particularly efficacious. I am not a Christian, much less a Catholic; but it seems to me that there are potentially myriad reasons for this to be so, the least of which is any inherent merit on the part of the person praying. It may have something to do with the idea that "we're all in this together" and that God wants us to help one another, so He often waits for us to seek Him or for others to seek Him on our behalf -- thereby enhancing the relationships all-around (God-prayer, God-recipient, and prayer-recipient). This would seem confluent with the idea that God is Love and that Love is the Whole Point. "Righteous" people may simply be people who know God more intimately (closer relationship) -- again, not because they're "better" but because they've shed more of their sinful nature -- and one way this could augment the efficacy of their prayers would be by making them superior conduits of divine grace, the same way getting rid of a clog makes a pipe a superior conduit of water. Anyway, that my view, as an interested outsider.

Submitted for approval or rejection by actual Catholic Christians.

 

[CatholicCrusader]

How do saints fit into Catholic theology?

In Catholic common speech, "Saint" is usually short-hand for "Canonized Saint". All people in heaven are saints and we can never know who they all are. But a Canonized Saint is a person that the Church has procalaimed to definitely be in heaven, and who led a life that we can look to as proof that being a saint is possible.

What is the use of directing prayers at saints when you can pray directly to God?

Thats a no-brainer. It is the same as you asking a friend to pray fgor you. Ask yourself: Why would I ask a friend to pray for me. You answer to that is the answer to your question. You see, all Christians are part of the Body of Christ, whether they are in heaven or on earth.

And why are some purported miracles attributed to God, while others are attributed to one saint or another?

That is incorrect: ALL miracles are attributed to God. The question is: Are some of the miracles God does an answer to a prayer He received from a saint

Check these out:
The Intercession of the Saints
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?

 

[CatholicCrusader]

<snip>....Many people who are not Catholic confuse prayer with worship. Prayer is not necessarily worship - though we may worship WHILE we pray.... <snip>

That is very VERY good!

 

[Gaura Priya]

I am studying Anglicanism, and I guess Anglicans commemorate, memorialise and have Propers for different saints, depending on their sense of holiness and love of Christ. But there is a difference between "Saint Anthony, pray for me!" and "Saint Anthony, please help me find my keys!", and so Anglicans believe in the veneration, advocation, intercession and commemoration of the saints, but never their invocation.

 

[Shiranui117]

I am studying Anglicanism, and I guess Anglicans commemorate, memorialise and have Propers for different saints, depending on their sense of holiness and love of Christ. But there is a difference between "Saint Anthony, pray for me!" and "Saint Anthony, please help me find my keys!", and so Anglicans believe in the veneration, advocation, intercession and commemoration of the saints, but never their invocation.

The way I've always been told about things like saying to the Virgin Mary, "Most holy Theotokos, save us!" is really a shorthand for saying, "Most Holy Theotokos, pray to God that He might save us!"

In the same way, saying "St. Anthony, please help me find my keys!" is shorthand for saying, "St. Anthony, please pray to God that He might help me find my keys!"

 

[Gaura Priya]

The way I've always been told about things like saying to the Virgin Mary, "Most holy Theotokos, save us!" is really a shorthand for saying, "Most Holy Theotokos, pray to God that He might save us!"

In the same way, saying "St. Anthony, please help me find my keys!" is shorthand for saying, "St. Anthony, please pray to God that He might help me find my keys!"

I suppose one could think that way. As a former Roman Catholic, there was always that danger among people of many ethnicities to bring Mary higher than she needed to be, from the Mother of God, to some sort of 'Mother God' instead. Not that I see anything completely and absolutely wrong with that, God bless and know their hearts, but it still slightly departs from Christian sensibility regarding Marian hyperdulia.

Mind you, my home altar is quite Marian in character!

To me, the worship of relics of Christian Saints just seem... well, unnecessary, when we can just ask for their prayers directly from Heaven! So while I do believe in the veneration of the saints, I do believe also in good moderation and remember that ultimately Christ is the Mediator, and we, therefore co-mediators in Christ.