Sacrifice

[Unveiled Artist]

Take your time guys, Im in no rush.

**
​

You have to forgive me, but I hope this will be more of an intellectual talk rather than a debate. Its controversial in nature and in DIRs not everyone can participate.

My points are in:

**
​

I want to talk about sacrifice both religious/ritual and just plain killing animals so we can eat.
I was reading this: Animal Sacrifice in Modern Paganism and Haitian Vodou and Animal Sacrifice

The first one talks about how modern pagans view sacrifice and the moral nature of sacrifice in and of itself. The second talks about how Hatian Vodou sees sacrifice and the moral ethics they use to with good intention justify the nature of ritual actions.

Take your time. Both articles are not long.

So, right now Im cooking Chicken. Im going to season it read to eat with vegies and rice. Sounds good. Yet, I come across these sitesa nd it dawns on me those of us who eat meat are participating in a sacrifice of an animal (now thats commons sense, right?)

1. Yet, we shy from animal sacrifice in a religious context. Why?

In the articles, it says that the religious sacrifice, if not more humanely, animals just as farmers do when we later buy our meats from the grocery stores. In ritual, after the animal is slain, it is cooked (of course there are customs that go with this), as Im cooking my chicken right now, and given to the community to eat. The live-force or spirit of the animal was given to the community as, in my interpretation of learning so far, a way of balancing how we see life and death. How the food we eat is connected to how much we are comfortable with death. (This philosophizing can go on for hours, so Ima skip)



Now, if I am correct, in Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim all eat meat at one time or another outside of fasting. But I want to focus on Christianity since that is what I know best and I can get to the point with what I know best. Maybe Jews can help me with context. Muslims, of course, as well. Anyone knowledgle in biblical text is cool; and, Im looking for a spiritual point of view as well rather than academic.

Throughout the Old Testament (and Torah), in Exodus and Leviticus there is a profound use of animal sacrifice to give to god for remission of their sins. I read up to Joshua, so I can quote; but, thats not quite my point.

2. My curiousity peaked as Im cooking this chicken, what if (and this is harsh), I was cooking a human to give it up for sacrifice? How is this different voluntary (which according to the articles, by the priests they find if the animal "is ready" to be sacrified as well as with divination) or not any different than Christ given himself up to god to save others by remission of their sins?

Its the same as the articles when they talk about African traditions and specifically Vodou. However, instead of offering a human sacrifice, they offer up an animal.

That makes a whole lot more sense to me. Its not just because one is a animal and the other is a human, it makes sense because we sacrifice animals four our nourishment (our lives) everyday. With humans we kill or murder daily with in some cases no regards to the lives we kill just who we save in the process of slaughter.

More questions

3. Christians and Muslims, since I know Muslism you two acknowledge the Biblea s Divine, how do you and Christians see human sacrifice in comparison to that of Vodou and that of the Old Testament?

4. Do you see a huge similarity (Christians) that you are asking for remission for sins as a Voudist does of an animal?

5. Does the sacrifice being human and from god make the sacrifice more humane than that of an animal? (Remember, Vodou get permission from god as well and from the spirits before they sacrifice animals)

6. Muslims, how do you feel about this subject? If you consider the divinity of the Bible, then there is some importance in Christ sacrifice that you maybe understand even though you disbelief in the christian claim of sacrificial offerings for sins to please god.

7. Everyone else, maybe you can shed some respectful light in how these two ideas compare.

Recap:

They both come from god
They both are seen as necessary by its believers
They both are used for remission of sins
They both are meant for communion
They both are a means of life

8. Catholics, I was thinking this is why sacrifical offering is offered every Mass. It is completing the meal to which was done in the OT. This is also a comparison of what is done in Vodou and other African religions.

How do you feel about the comparison in addition to the questions above?

Take your time guys. Im in no rush.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

I am an omnivore, and I would much rather people view the slaughter of animals in the context of a sacred responsibility with a heavy spiritual weight than treating the flesh of living beings as another industrial commodity. The same people who are offended by Vodou practices are likely often the same people who buy factory-farmed meat at the supermarket. If you ask me, a McDonald's burger is an atrocity, and so is a processed soy product. I believe the true moral dichotomy wrt food isn't animal products vs plant products, but industrial and monocultural farming methods vs bioregionally-roote approaches to food production. And if it's OK to kill and eat animals in a secular context, then a religious context is no different.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am an omnivore, and I would much rather people view the slaughter of animals in the context of a sacred responsibility with a heavy spiritual weight than treating the flesh of living beings as another industrial commodity. The same people who are offended by Vodou practices are likely often the same people who buy factory-farmed meat at the supermarket. If you ask me, a McDonald's burger is an atrocity, and so is a processed soy product. I believe the true moral dichotomy wrt food isn't animal products vs plant products, but industrial and monocultural farming methods vs bioregionally-roote approaches to food production. And if it's OK to kill and eat animals in a secular context, then a religious context is no different.

Yes. I agree. Id rather see slaughtering of animals in ritual context than slaughtering for profit especially when we have so many artifical foods that it makes killing to survive a "practice" or skill we loose daily.

I know we city folk cant just get up and go to the country to "live as farmers" to appreciate the food we slaughter and serve to our families. I wonder if there are things we can do (well, Im in the states so the laws are a bit strict) here that is more profound that offering food we didnt kill ourselves just bought from the store, cooked, and serve.

 

[Flankerl]

So, right now Im cooking Chicken. Im going to season it read to eat with vegies and rice. Sounds good. Yet, I come across these sitesa nd it dawns on me those of us who eat meat are participating in a sacrifice of an animal (now thats commons sense, right?)

In which universe is that common sense?

No eating food is in no way a sacrifice. You replenish your nutrients. You don't do so to absolve yourself from your sins.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In which universe is that common sense?

No eating food is in no way a sacrifice. You replenish your nutrients. You don't do so to absolve yourself from your sins.

A farmer slaughters a cow to remit you from your hunger (in Voudou case spiritual and physical hunger) but to many just physical hunger. When you eat/partake of the meal he gave you (through many middle-man), your hunger (to some sins) are gone.

Food relieves you of hunger. Without it, you will die.

People see sins the same way. If you dont have a human sacrifice (Christianity) you die in your sins.

Vodouist the same but with an animal. If you dont have an animal sacrifice, you die in your sins. (However, in this case I dont know exactly how a Voudouist would term it. So, Im taking my best guess since its mixed with Catholicism).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Flankerl

That aside, though. Do you see the similarities of the sacrifices practiced from the Old Testament and those of a Vodouist? I know many Christians would have a hissy fit of comparing their beliefs to Vodouist practices; and, its worth looking into because it shows the nature of sacrifice outside Abrahamic walls--Christian, Jew, and Muslim alike.

 

[roger1440]

I guess this is sacrificing bacteria

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I guess this is sacrificing bacteria

Well, you are killing it to remove yourself of infection for good health.

Doesnt relate to the points in my OP/

 

[Flankerl]

A farmer slaughters a cow to remit you from your hunger (in Voudou case spiritual and physical hunger) but to many just physical hunger. When you eat/partake of the meal he gave you (through many middle-man), your hunger (to some sins) are gone.

Food relieves you of hunger. Without it, you will die.

Farmers sell food because they need to live, pay their bills etc.
People usually need to eat because they otherwise would die of hunger.

You are over thinking one of the most simple things in the world.

@Flankerl

That aside, though. Do you see the similarities of the sacrifices practiced from the Old Testament and those of a Vodouist? I know many Christians would have a hissy fit of comparing their beliefs to Vodouist practices; and, its worth looking into because it shows the nature of sacrifice outside Abrahamic walls--Christian, Jew, and Muslim alike.

Of course there are similarities. But I don't know enough about Voodoo to compare it. The site seems also rather weird, should use a more simple language and be more on point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Farmers sell food because they need to live, pay their bills etc.
People usually need to eat because they otherwise would die of hunger.

You are over thinking one of the most simple things in the world.

You commented on something that isnt related to my OP and it is the most simplist things in the world. I replied and for some reason you didnt get my point.

No need to imply I dont understand something by the way I say it. Ask for clarification. **

Of course there are similarities. But I don't know enough about Voodoo to compare it. The site seems also rather weird, should use a more simple language and be more on point.

Simple translation. Vodouist use animals in ritual to kill for their life-force (spirit). Once the animal is slain, the life-force or spirit goes into the person who killed it and once eatened, everyone else receives that same life-force.

OT Levites, I think (we arent talking about Ps and Qs), offered up sacrifices for god. It doesnt say they received a life force but they did receive god's blessing and aproval thereby remission from sins.

However, you'd have to understand the site and understand what I posted in the OP to really reply to the OP rather than commenting on the meaning of sacrifice not the similarities of sacrifice between both Abrahamic and DIsaporic religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is another site about it. This is longer but interesting if you are interesting in reading it.

The History of Haitian Vodou

 

[Flankerl]

You commented on something that isnt related to my OP and it is the most simplist things in the world. I replied and for some reason you didnt get my point.

No need to imply I dont understand something by the way I say it. Ask for clarification. **

What? Everything I wrote was in answer to something you wrote. You apparently didn't get the answer you were looking for but that does not mean it wasn't related to what you wrote.

Also nowhere did I wrote that you didn't understand something.

Simple translation. Vodouist use animals in ritual to kill for their life-force (spirit). Once the animal is slain, the life-force or spirit goes into the person who killed it and once eatened, everyone else receives that same life-force.

Ah I see. This does not exist in Judaism.

OT Levites, I think (we arent talking about Ps and Qs), offered up sacrifices for god. It doesnt say they received a life force but they did receive god's blessing and aproval thereby remission from sins.

No. One can slaughter all sheep on earth, if there is no personal atonement of the person in question it means nothing.

Also animal sacrifices are one way to atone for ones sins, but there are more than enough who don't involve any killing at all.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, right now I'm cooking Chicken. I'm going to season it read to eat with vegies and rice.

Don't spoil it. Just eat it whatever way you like.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I notice that in many threads instead of taking what the thread says at face value and acknowledging maybe you dont know about some the material to comment, you (as many do) comment anyway on something that is specifically not related to the OP in question. It gets all jumbled up in an enless debate over nothing (this) instead of either addressing the OP, asking for clarification, or just saying "hey, I dont understand enough to answer the question."

With that said, this is an intentional repeat so you understand what Im asking in the OP, what you said, and why I am doing this.



I asked in the OP, do Christians (since they believe in human sacrifice), Jews (to an extent because there is only animal sacrifice in the Torah), and Muslim (which I am not sure of their teachings on sacrifice) see similaries with their faith and that of vodouist.

I summarizd the sites to make it easier and recaped the points below. Not many peopel read my full thread because they are so long. I rather they read it in full** and take as much time as they need then reply to parts and Ps and Qs (anyone) rather than addressing the point/s themelves

In which universe is that common sense?

No eating food is in no way a sacrifice. You replenish your nutrients. You don't do so to absolve yourself from your sins.

This has nothing to do with my OP. Though, unfortunately, I decided to answer anyway.

Farmers sell food because they need to live, pay their bills etc. People usually need to eat because they otherwise would die of hunger.

You are over thinking one of the most simple things in the world.

This has nothing to do with my OP; therefore, there is no reason for my to really go into it in detail or even think about it. Thats an asumption "you are over thinking one of the most simle things in the world"** I dont care for assumptions. Ask for clarification.

Of course there are similarities. But I don't know enough about Voodoo to compare it. The site seems also rather weird, should use a more simple language and be more on point.

Now we are getting somewhere. However,y ou said you dont know much about Vodou to compare and the language on the site should use simple language and more to the point.

Since thats the case, how can you answer my OP?

Why the derail of the thread over farmers and the meaning of sacrifice?

What? Everything I wrote was in answer to something you wrote. You apparently didn't get the answer you were looking for but that does not mean it wasn't related to what you wrote.

Also nowhere did I wrote that you didn't understand something.

You didnt answer what I wrote because you said you didnt know enough about Vodou and the site did not get to the point (above) for you to reply other than saying they do have smilarities.

And no need to make this anymore fufstrating "also nowhere did I wrote that you didnt understand something".

That is why I said indirect or seems to (got to look back). Please re-read what I say. If I am direct, I wont beat around the bush. If I am indirect, I will say so.**

Ah I see. This does not exist in Judaism.

In the same paragraph you quoted, I did say that the old testament did not mention life-force. I said, instead, that once the Levites (or whomever) offered the sacrifice, they received blessings from god.

Please re-read the full paragraph.

No. One can slaughter all sheep on earth, if there is no personal atonement of the person in question it means nothing.

Also animal sacrifices are one way to atone for ones sins, but there are more than enough who don't involve any killing at all.

This has nothing to do with the OP.

I will comment anyway; and, this will be the end of the farmer/sacrifice discussion since its derailing my OP.

The farmer kills an animal. (Sacrifices his life)

For his family (and for us through middle-men) to have food on our plates.

When we eat, we eat of this sacrifice he gave us by slaughting the animal.

We are given nourishment. That nourishiment is life.

In Vodou, this nourishment is also spiritual life as well as physical.

My OP asked if there are similarities between jewish, Christian, and Muslim faith of their view of sacrifice with that of Vodou.

If the reader doesnt have knowledge or doesnt want to ask for knowledge to answer the OP, why reply?

Please. Please read the whole thing. Take a year time if you want. Id apprecate the time and patience youve taken to actively read my posts.**

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Don't spoil it. Just eat it whatever way you like.

Hehe. Yeah. Avoided the pictures. Tasted good, though.

 

[Flankerl]

I don't know how to hold a conversation with you.

Take care and good luck with your thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For a Hindu, we have a lne in our scriptures: "Jeevo jeevasya bhojanam" (One living being is food or another), whether animal or vegetation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know how to hold a conversation with you.

Take care and good luck with your thread.

The points is

1. Stay on topic
2. Ask for clarification
3. No generalizations
4. No assumptions
5. No indirect statements that questions anyone's intillegence

After that, conversation will be much easier and if all the post are read and processed than we both understand what each other says and answer appropriately.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Can Christians and Jews (and maybe Muslims?) comfortably say their practices are similar to Vodou?

Christians, do you see that your asking Jesus for remission of sins is exactly how a Vodousist "ask" for remission of his sins? Both by death and blood. Both voluntary. Both from god. Both communion.

Catholics, do you see Mass similar to a Vodouist offering as the Eucharist is given up as an offering to the Church as the animal is given up from god to the spirits and people?

I know many Christians (maybe Jews and Muslims) may feel uncomfortable comparing their practices with Vodou and other like beliefs. I feel its worth looking into when talking about the nature of sacrifice.

Also, do Muslims practice or have a teaching related to sacrifice?

Let me extend this: Christian, Jew, and Muslim of any denomiantion. Any faith of Abraham can reply as well.

 

[Jainarayan]

Animal sacrifice was the historical norm in Heathenry. It served two purposes:

1. Offering to the gods, clearly.
2. Bringing community together.

Animal sacrifice performed by one person may fulfill an offering to the gods but it's impracticable. Even sacrificing a chicken requires two people: one to hold and dispatch it and one to hold the blót bowl to catch the blood, the whole purpose. Blót comes from the word meaning blood.

The second aspect of community is that the goði or gyðja (priest or priestess) offers the blood to the gods and blesses the community with it. The animal is cooked, a portion is offered to the gods usually by burning it. and the rest is eaten at a community feast.

It's usually a larger animal like a goat that's sacrificed. That's impractical if not downright illegal in areas not zoned for raising and slaughtering livestock. Unless one lives on a farm and/or regularly slaughters livestock for food and can do it humanely that's why a live sacrifice is impractical.

Moreover, unless the animal is dispatched swiftly and humanely, if it suffers because the person sacrificing it is inexperienced, it could be considered an offense to the gods.