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Featured Sacred and Profane

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Estro Felino, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I have been wanting to start this thread...for months.
    Now I think it is time, as soon as I have watched a video about two Christian preachers who, before the Pantheon, in Rome explain how Catholicism is a Christian faith where sacred and profane intertwine.
    The proof: the most intact Pagan temple in history was turned into a Christian Church.
    So many pagan temples were turned into churches in Italy.
    But this contributed to their preservation.





    What do you think?
    Do you think it is cultural, that sacred and profane gets mixed up in Christianity?
     
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  2. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I don't think it's the sacred and profane mixing at all. God divinized it, and now it's all sacred, just like when He claims a human person they will become holy, and it is not considered a "mixing" because God wholly sanctifies them. It must also be remembered all that exists is good in itself and is the Lord's anyway. That's my opinion on the matter at least.
     
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  3. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Your words of wisdom really please me:)

    I confess that I do follow very modern theologians (Catholic priests like Monsignor Poma) whose teachings have been labeled as profane and almost heretical.

    I deeply respect all those Christians who are very rigid about beliefs and who consider modernism profane.
     
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  4. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I follow individuals like that also (and even people who are atheists), for even though I disagree on some points hardly anyone I have met is wrong on all things, and the perspective can be enlightening which in itself leads to truth, even though I hold they have errors.
     
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  5. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    I don't see it like that either. After all, Christianity grew by conversion of people from pre-Christian religions, not by killing them all (though, regrettably, that sometimes happened too). So what could be more natural than converting the use of existing buildings too, rather than destroying them all? Christianity even converted festivals, notably Christmas. I find this attitude shows more kindness and respect for the people involved and their culture than destroying everything and starting with a tabula rasa.
     
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  6. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been in that building, and found it most impressive. Didn’t Michaelangelo spend hours staring up at the dome, when he was formulating his plans for St Peter’s? Great builders, the ancient Romans. The Pantheon was built in the time of Hadrian, I believe? Who also gave his name to a wall connecting a string of forts between Scotland and England.

    I think there was a time when the Roman Catholic Church was contemptuous of paganism, but really they share a common root with those ancient civilisations of Greece and Rome. European culture is in many ways Christian culture, but it all began with the Hellenic city states, centuries before Christianity
     
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  7. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    I mean, the Catholic Church once literally was those ancient civilizations, before the Roman Empire partially collapsed and the Western church had to look to formerly "barbarian" lords for protection and sustenance.

    The influence ancient Greece had on "European culture" is arguably to a large degree the result of a deliberate effort to incorporate Greek intellectual culture and the traditions of Greek philosophy and rhetoric into Christian European institutions of learning.

    In Roman and pre-Roman times, Greece was a lot closer to the Levant in terms of cultural ties than it ever was to Central and Western Europe, arguably closer to a shared Mediterranean culture than anything distinctly "European". In fact, I would strongly argue that the conception of "Europe" as a separate cultural and geographic entity largely came about with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the widespread Christianization of the European subcontinent.
     
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  8. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    My favourite example of a converted temple is the cathedral on the island of Ortygia, in Syracuse. It has a Baroque front, but once inside you can see the Doric columns of the ancient temple, embedded in the walls. It was partly built as a church in the c.7th but has been a mosque, then a church again, has Norman influence.....
    Basically everybody has been!

    I found Ortygia the most magical and mysterious place, with a large pool of fresh water welling up from an underground spring from the mainland, even though it is an island in the sea.
     
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  9. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    We call it temple of Athena.:)
    Even if it is a Church.
     
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  10. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Well either way I was captivated by my visit - and so was my wife when I took her there years later. In fact Sicily was the most varied and interesting place in Italy that I have been. Though the Italian Lakes take some beating.
     
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  11. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    Catholic means "universal," so its means would be to assimilate others into the "universal church."
     
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  12. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Christianity is a vast menagerie of borrowed religions, so it comes across as extremely appropriate.
     
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  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    If I look back, I understand that my Catholic upbringing was so confusing that now I cannot figure out what is sacred and what is profane.
    In my life sacred and profane have always intertwined in a way that I cannot distinguish the one from the other.

    For example...I consider The Thorn Birds my Bible. When I want to seek comfort, I open that book and read some passages.
    Is that sacred? Or profane?
    The story of a woman who falls in love with a priest?

    Which I have experienced. I did hit on a priest I fancied when I was younger.
    In the Church.
    Was it profane? But I thoight it was holy, since love is a sacred thing.
     
  14. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Many consider Munch's Madonna a profane work of art.
    Because the Virgin cannot be portrayed this way.
    I think it has nothing profane.

    1200px-Edvard_Munch_-_Madonna_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You are going to need to explain what you mean by "the sacred and profane getting mixed up," and provide examples. Sacred (aka holy) refers to those things, places, people, or time that are set apart for God's purposes. Profane is everything that is not. IOW there is a clear distinction between sacred and profane. So how cna you mix them up?

    If a Christian denomination chooses to take a pagan temple and convert it into a church, that would be the equivilent of taking something which is, to them, profane, and changing it into what is, for them, sacred. I still don't see how sacred and profane are getting mixed up with each other.
     
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  16. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    It is very subjective.
    What is profane can change according to the person's sensitivity / religiosity.
    For example, when Pope Bergoglio put the Pachamama idols (pagan statues) into the Basilica, in the Vatican, I considered that act profane.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, what is sacred is obviously different depending on your religious tradition. To a Catholic, a church is holy, consecrated ground. To me, as a Jew, a church is just an ordinary building used by people to worship a man.
     
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  18. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    We worship the same God in church as you do as a Jew in the synagogue or temple though we have different beliefs about this One God.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Unless you are an unusual Christian, you worship a man named Jesus -- you believe he is God. Sorry, but in Judaism, our God is not a man. Very different thing. I appreciate the fact that you say you worship the Creator -- that is a very important distinction for the God of the Jews. But a Jew cannot worhsip a man, whether he is Caesar, or Jesus, or Joe Blow down the street. This is why we Jews say we really have more in common with Muslims than with Christians.

    If you want, I can go into the details about how worship Jesus, although avaodah zarah (idolatry) for a Jew, is merely sheetuf (association) for non-Jew and therefore toleratred. But first I need for you to let me know if you are interested in that conversation.
     
  20. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Our worship is to God, the God of Israel whom we worship through the Son.
    1065 Jesus Christ himself is the "Amen." He is the definitive "Amen" of the Father's love for us. He takes up and completes our "Amen" to the Father: "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God":
    Through him, with him, in him,
    in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
    all glory and honor is yours,
    almighty Father,
    God, for ever and ever.
    AMEN.
     
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