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'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West'

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West': Putin has taken conflict in Ukraine 'to a different stage', senior EU official admits following Germany's decision to supply tanks

Stefano Sannino, secretary general of the European Union's European External Action Service, said Vladimir Putin will increase indiscriminate attacks on civilians and non-military targets and retaliate against the West.

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo as part of an Asia-Pacific tour, he said Putin had 'moved from a concept of special operation to a concept now of a war against NATO and the West'.

Opinion Putin is embracing Stalin’s way of war
“The military-patriotic hysteria brings to mind the USSR of the 1930’s, the era of parades of athletes, tank mock-ups and dirigibles, and shaved napes,” wrote opposition essayist Sergei Medvedev. “Today, the people again joyfully dress in Red Army uniforms, take pictures of themselves on tanks and await war.” In the endless victory liturgy, Medvedev continued, Putin has forged a nation of war that has “battened the hatches and views the world through the lookout slit of a tank.”
...
Putin appropriated the title that Stalin awarded himself at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War: “Supreme Commander-in-Chief.”
...
Bakhmut has shown that it’s not just for the rank that Putin looked to Stalin. Stalin’s infamous 1942 Order No. 227, known as “Not a step back,” created penal battalions, or shtrafbats. Staffed with officers and soldiers “guilty of the breach of discipline,” the shtrafbats were sent on kamikaze “human waves” attacks to “redeem by blood their crimes against the motherland.” Those lucky enough to be wounded but not killed were returned to regular units.
...
“We drowned the enemy in our blood; we buried him under our corpses,” a war veteran and writer, Viktor Astafiev, recalled in 1988 of his experience in the Great Patriotic War.

The current defense minister, Shoigu, has proposed raising the number of combat personnel in the armed forces from 1.15 million to 1.5 million. Putin is readying for such a war. Ukraine and its Western supporters ought to be steeled for it as well.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
When I read the OP pieces, this came to mind:

"Forth and fear no darkness"

“Arise, arise, riders of Théoden!
Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered!
A sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!

Ride now, ride now, ride!
Ride for ruin, and the world’s ending!

Death! Death! Death"

 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If NATO actually went to war with Russia you would know if by Russia being wiped off the map.

It's certainly not a direct war but a proxy war on our side. We're now supplying Ukraine with at least some of our most advanced weapons, training their troops and no doubt giving them battlefield intelligence. Russia is acting as bellicose as anything with all sorts of extreme statements but so far it's just words.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

Possibly f-16's next, as indicated by the latest set of headlines?

You know before all this started, there was article I read or saw, that said russia was 'on the brink of a 60's-like revolution.' Don't you think that an internal social revolution, maybe like that, is the only real way this could change?

If NATO actually went to war with Russia you would know if by Russia being wiped off the map.

As would we. Except probably the leaders of both sides, who would probably be the ones really wimping out and going deep underground
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West': Putin has taken conflict in Ukraine 'to a different stage', senior EU official admits following Germany's decision to supply tanks

Stefano Sannino, secretary general of the European Union's European External Action Service, said Vladimir Putin will increase indiscriminate attacks on civilians and non-military targets and retaliate against the West.

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo as part of an Asia-Pacific tour, he said Putin had 'moved from a concept of special operation to a concept now of a war against NATO and the West'.

Opinion Putin is embracing Stalin’s way of war
“The military-patriotic hysteria brings to mind the USSR of the 1930’s, the era of parades of athletes, tank mock-ups and dirigibles, and shaved napes,” wrote opposition essayist Sergei Medvedev. “Today, the people again joyfully dress in Red Army uniforms, take pictures of themselves on tanks and await war.” In the endless victory liturgy, Medvedev continued, Putin has forged a nation of war that has “battened the hatches and views the world through the lookout slit of a tank.”
...
Putin appropriated the title that Stalin awarded himself at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War: “Supreme Commander-in-Chief.”
...
Bakhmut has shown that it’s not just for the rank that Putin looked to Stalin. Stalin’s infamous 1942 Order No. 227, known as “Not a step back,” created penal battalions, or shtrafbats. Staffed with officers and soldiers “guilty of the breach of discipline,” the shtrafbats were sent on kamikaze “human waves” attacks to “redeem by blood their crimes against the motherland.” Those lucky enough to be wounded but not killed were returned to regular units.
...
“We drowned the enemy in our blood; we buried him under our corpses,” a war veteran and writer, Viktor Astafiev, recalled in 1988 of his experience in the Great Patriotic War.

The current defense minister, Shoigu, has proposed raising the number of combat personnel in the armed forces from 1.15 million to 1.5 million. Putin is readying for such a war. Ukraine and its Western supporters ought to be steeled for it as well.

I couldn't open the Washington Post link, though I wanted to read the writer's take on how Putin's war compares with Stalin's war. I've always thought that comparing Putin to anything Soviet was apples to oranges. I would say that Putin's way of war is more comparable to Nicholas Romanov's way of war.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Possibly f-16's next, as indicated by the latest set of headlines?

You know before all this started, there was article I read or saw, that said russia was 'on the brink of a 60's-like revolution.' Don't you think that an internal social revolution, maybe like that, is the only real way this could change?



As would we. Except probably the leaders of both sides, who would probably be the ones really wimping out and going deep underground
Russian music must be awesome by now.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Russian music must be awesome by now.

This was always popular. Those who recall the movie Stalag 17 might remember Harry and the Animal singing this tune while trying to finesse their way into the Russian compound.


It seems the video doesn't work unless you watch it on YouTube. It's the "Song of the Volga Boatmen."
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I couldn't open the Washington Post link, though I wanted to read the writer's take on how Putin's war compares with Stalin's war. I've always thought that comparing Putin to anything Soviet was apples to oranges. I would say that Putin's way of war is more comparable to Nicholas Romanov's way of war.

The article did not really go into that interesting question. It was oriented around Putin adopting Stalin as a model from repression to title to dealing with those who would retreat. One sentence that struck me: Putin, wrote the political philosopher Alexandr Tsypko, was trying to “to grab onto Stalin’s military overcoat and to slip into his jackboots.”
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The article did not really go into that interesting question. It was oriented around Putin adopting Stalin as a model from repression to title to dealing with those who would retreat. One sentence that struck me: Putin, wrote the political philosopher Alexandr Tsypko, was trying to “to grab onto Stalin’s military overcoat and to slip into his jackboots.”

There are some similarities, although political repression was also quite common under the Tsar.

One thing that I've noticed as a pattern regarding Russia and war, it's that the Russians have rarely won any wars where they are the aggressors. On the defensive, against Napoleon and Hitler, they won spectacularly, but when they're the aggressors, they've done horribly.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West': Putin has taken conflict in Ukraine 'to a different stage', senior EU official admits following Germany's decision to supply tanks

Stefano Sannino, secretary general of the European Union's European External Action Service, said Vladimir Putin will increase indiscriminate attacks on civilians and non-military targets and retaliate against the West.

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo as part of an Asia-Pacific tour, he said Putin had 'moved from a concept of special operation to a concept now of a war against NATO and the West'.

Opinion Putin is embracing Stalin’s way of war
“The military-patriotic hysteria brings to mind the USSR of the 1930’s, the era of parades of athletes, tank mock-ups and dirigibles, and shaved napes,” wrote opposition essayist Sergei Medvedev. “Today, the people again joyfully dress in Red Army uniforms, take pictures of themselves on tanks and await war.” In the endless victory liturgy, Medvedev continued, Putin has forged a nation of war that has “battened the hatches and views the world through the lookout slit of a tank.”
...
Putin appropriated the title that Stalin awarded himself at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War: “Supreme Commander-in-Chief.”
...
Bakhmut has shown that it’s not just for the rank that Putin looked to Stalin. Stalin’s infamous 1942 Order No. 227, known as “Not a step back,” created penal battalions, or shtrafbats. Staffed with officers and soldiers “guilty of the breach of discipline,” the shtrafbats were sent on kamikaze “human waves” attacks to “redeem by blood their crimes against the motherland.” Those lucky enough to be wounded but not killed were returned to regular units.
...
“We drowned the enemy in our blood; we buried him under our corpses,” a war veteran and writer, Viktor Astafiev, recalled in 1988 of his experience in the Great Patriotic War.

The current defense minister, Shoigu, has proposed raising the number of combat personnel in the armed forces from 1.15 million to 1.5 million. Putin is readying for such a war. Ukraine and its Western supporters ought to be steeled for it as well.

The Hatfields and McCoys.

Who ever helped the Hatfield's became an enemy to the McCoys

Who ever helped the McCoys became an enemy to the Hatfields.

Anyone helping Ukraine will become an enemy to Russia. It doesn't make what Russia is doing right, its just reality.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This has been more and more evident as time goes on. NATO now supplying current generation of battle tanks to Ukraine is the latest step in the Russia-NATO war. It's not WWIII but there's not many steps left for NATO to give Ukraine missiles capable of hitting Moscow and Putin's bunker.

'Russia is now at war with NATO and the West': Putin has taken conflict in Ukraine 'to a different stage', senior EU official admits following Germany's decision to supply tanks

Stefano Sannino, secretary general of the European Union's European External Action Service, said Vladimir Putin will increase indiscriminate attacks on civilians and non-military targets and retaliate against the West.

Speaking at a news conference in Tokyo as part of an Asia-Pacific tour, he said Putin had 'moved from a concept of special operation to a concept now of a war against NATO and the West'.
At this point putin is a war criminal, and ther war is total war, nation against nation. This is certainly tactics motivated by putin's ego, which is a huge liability for any authoritarian leader. NATO has been a part of this war on Ukraine's side, and there is no mistake that NATO sees putin a huge threat to security.
Opinion Putin is embracing Stalin’s way of war
“The military-patriotic hysteria brings to mind the USSR of the 1930’s, the era of parades of athletes, tank mock-ups and dirigibles, and shaved napes,” wrote opposition essayist Sergei Medvedev. “Today, the people again joyfully dress in Red Army uniforms, take pictures of themselves on tanks and await war.” In the endless victory liturgy, Medvedev continued, Putin has forged a nation of war that has “battened the hatches and views the world through the lookout slit of a tank.”
...
Putin appropriated the title that Stalin awarded himself at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War: “Supreme Commander-in-Chief.”
...
Bakhmut has shown that it’s not just for the rank that Putin looked to Stalin. Stalin’s infamous 1942 Order No. 227, known as “Not a step back,” created penal battalions, or shtrafbats. Staffed with officers and soldiers “guilty of the breach of discipline,” the shtrafbats were sent on kamikaze “human waves” attacks to “redeem by blood their crimes against the motherland.” Those lucky enough to be wounded but not killed were returned to regular units.
Stalin was as poor a commander as Hitler, and neither made good choices. The only reason both leaders had such good success was genuinely talented commanders on the field.
...
“We drowned the enemy in our blood; we buried him under our corpses,” a war veteran and writer, Viktor Astafiev, recalled in 1988 of his experience in the Great Patriotic War.

The current defense minister, Shoigu, has proposed raising the number of combat personnel in the armed forces from 1.15 million to 1.5 million. Putin is readying for such a war. Ukraine and its Western supporters ought to be steeled for it as well.
The problem for putin is that this is an unpopular war that is serving no purpose. They aren't defending themselves from an invader like the Germans. Stalin could afford to create a meatgrinder approach because he had men from all of Russia who were willing to be a part of it. That is no longer the case. putin has used convicts for penal units, which is what Stalin used as well. The difference is that putin's criminals have non-military offenses and will be exonerated if they survive the war. But he will run out of convicts at some point. They need to be healthy and be trained. Belorussia is unlikely to help since their military is small and trained for anti-terrorism, not field warfare. So Russia is on its own and running out of options.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It's certainly not a direct war but a proxy war on our side. We're now supplying Ukraine with at least some of our most advanced weapons, training their troops and no doubt giving them battlefield intelligence. Russia is acting as bellicose as anything with all sorts of extreme statements but so far it's just words.

How can Ukraine ever claim they won the war with Russia(if it turns out that way)?

They would only win(if it turns out that way)because of the help of several other countries.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
If NATO actually went to war with Russia you would know if by Russia being wiped off the map.

I deeply loathe statements that seem to ponder such a situation as if it would be a triumph or something to celebrate. On the contrary, it would be a tragedy adding to the already horrendous events that have occurred, like the invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes that Putin's forces have committed.

Russia is home to over 144m people, many of whom don't like the current direction their country is taking any more than Putin's foreign opponents. If Russia were "wiped off the map," we would be seeing one of the largest-scale acts of genocide in human history. At that point, Russia would lose, Ukraine would lose, and any country that participated in such a crime would lose. We all would.

The problems are the invasion of Ukraine, annexation of its territory, and war crimes as well as widespread loss of life. I don't think we should miss the forest for the trees by focusing so much on notions likely perceived by some to be emotionally satisfying, such as "wiping off" an entire country, instead of realistic solutions that could help Ukraine and minimize further loss of innocent life.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I deeply loathe statements that seem to ponder such a situation as if it would be a triumph or something to celebrate. On the contrary, it would be a tragedy adding to the already horrendous events that have occurred, like the invasion of Ukraine and the war crimes that Putin's forces have committed.

Russia is home to over 144m people, many of whom don't like the current direction their country is taking any more than Putin's foreign opponents. If Russia were "wiped off the map," we would be seeing one of the largest-scale acts of genocide in human history. At that point, Russia would lose, Ukraine would lose, and any country that participated in such a crime would lose. We all would.

The problems are the invasion of Ukraine, annexation of its territory, and war crimes as well as widespread loss of life. I don't think we should miss the forest for the trees by focusing so much on notions likely perceived by some to be emotionally satisfying, such as "wiping off" an entire country, instead of realistic solutions that could minimize further loss of innocent life.
That is not at all what I meant. And perhaps I am guilty of being flippant and unclear,

I was just pointing out that the combined forces of NATO drastically out match Russia, perhaps by a factor of 10. And I am just talking about conventional forces. NATO is not going to war with Russia, and Russia is not going to war with NATO. Russia can barely handle Ukraine.

Understand that right now NATO is sending a tiny percentage of what they have. If they went to war, they would send it all, with troops. I mean when the U.S. says they are sending Abram tanks what they really mean is they are making Abrams! Like whipping up a batch of cookies for the charity bake sale, Russia can’t complete with that, much less all of NATO.

I am not cheering on war between NATO and Russia. I am explaining why it is not going to happen.
 
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