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Featured Romans 8, 1 Timothy 2 and the anointed

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Israel Khan, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I find that strange, and I question whether this is a "christian" concept, at all. I started a discussion about the book of Revelation, and that is one of the reasons why.
     
  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well, Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism and Judaism is its root. One can only understand the book of Revelation if one understands symbols in the old testament. So it is a jewish concept through and through.

    The changing of the tribes has Jewish significance. Ephraim is replaced maybe because it was the main tribe of the Northern kingdom and strayed too far from God? Samaria was its main city and when it was taken over by Babylon ( or Assyria. I cant remember) Samaria had tainted worship even to the time Jesus arrived, which is why Jews hated the Samaritans.

    Joseph is featured as a tribe in Revelation. His children was Manasseh AND Ephraim. So even though Ephraim isn't head of the tribe in revelation Joseph seems to cover Ephraim since Ephraim and Manasseh are sons of Joseph and therefore part of his tribe. Why Manasseh would be covered twice I do not know.

    Levi replaces Dan. Levi was never given an inheritance as a tribe but now it is. So it is a tribe of priests it seems.

    I do not understand why Dan would be replaced though. All I know is that once the tribe took a carved image as their god. And it was the second biggest tribe in terms of armed men but they lived in the smallest territory.

    I don't know the significance of these changes though. But I do know that the change of tribes is very important. They are not referring to the traditional Israelite tribes in my opinion.

    Why would you think that it isnt a Christian concept?

    I know that the idea of Tartarus is a Greek concept inserted to make a point. The whole idea of Godlike beings being trapped in tartarus is the same in Greek mythology about tartarus and the Titans. In this case, the fallen angels would be the Titans.

    Edit: I was mistaken. Tartarus is actually mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4, not revelation. Although I would say that the Abyss in Revelation 20 is the same place.
     
    #42 Israel Khan, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    You made some statements, that are vague, or just not factual, as direct statements. Obscure.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Tribe of Benjamin, located to the north of Judah but to the south of the northern Kingdom of Israel, is significant in biblical narratives as a source of various Israelite leaders including the first Israelite king, Saul, as well as earlier tribal leaders in the period of the Judges. In the period of the judges, they feature in an episode in which a civil war results in their near-extinction as a tribe. After the brief period of the united kingdom of Israel, Benjamin became part of the southern kingdom following the split into two kingdoms. After the destruction of the northern kingdom, Benjamin was absorbed into the southern kingdom. When the southern kingdom was destroyed in the early sixth century BCE, Benjamin as an organized tribe faded from history.
     
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  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The tribe of Dan became idol worshipers.
     
  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    The first century Christians were jews. If you look at commentaries then you will see the link between the book of Daniel (A jewish book) and the book of revelation.

    Below are some facts:

    Samaria being the head of Ephraim - Isaiah 7:9
    Ephraim was the main tribe of the northern Kingdom - Hosea 13:1, Isaiah 7
    Samarians invaded by Assyria and deported to Assyria - 2 Kings 17
    Samaria resettled by people from other nations resulting in a combination of true worship and false worship - 2 Kings 17:24-41
    The Samaritans had a seperate temple at gerizim which they worshipped and the worship was similar to the Jews but tainted - John 4:20-24
    The Jews hated samaritans - John 8:48
    Joseph is a tribe in revelation - Rev 7:8
    Josephs children was Menassah and Ephraim - Genesis 41:50-52
    Tribes were named of the relevent children of Israel. So all Ephraimites were descendents of Ephraim. If we use the same formula, the descendants of Joseph would be from both Menasseh and Ephraims tribe. Yet Menasseh gets mentioned again.
    The levites were not considered one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Josephs children take up two spots, the one replacing Levi's spot. Levi was a tribe of priests. - Numbers 1: (especially verse 49), Numbers 3
    The tribe of Dan steal Micah's idols and set it up as their own God - Judges 18:11-31
    Dan is the second most populous tribe numbering 62700 verses judahs 74600 - Numbers 1

    If there are any othere things you I might have missed, let me know.

    By the way, I am not conclusive on what the meaning of the 144 000 and the tribes involve mean. But many direct statements I made were taken from the scriptures sited above.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    I think it helps to remember that Samson who was a carnal man came from the tribe of Dan.
     
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  8. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I noticed that as well. Also, Esther and Mordecai were form the tribe of Benjamin. Some people say that the fact that the Kings of Israel started with Benjamites and the relevance of Esther and Mordecai is a fulfillment of Genesis 49:27. I don't know though.
     
  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    That is also something I have never thought about. Do you think that the tribe of Dan was messed up in general and is it possible that this is evidence as to why they aren't featured as part of the 144 000?
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Well, the tribe of Dan got some prize real estate.. on the coast with water, fertile soil and fishing... but they accepted idols.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Esther was a Jewish orphan who became a queen of Persia, but there are so many historical problems with the story that it is unlikely to be historically true, and that there was no Queen Esther.

    Let me add that the Pashtuns in Afghanistan claim to be descended from the tribe of Benjamin and some Israeli scholars confirm that claim.. The Pashtuns are very weird and have some customs unlike anywhere else in the Arab/Muslim world.
     
    #51 sooda, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting. Do you have any links to the info?

    I sit also something that is conclusive or could we possibly find evidence of her existence in the future?
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    She was supposed to have lived 100 years after the end of the Babylonian exile.. and the claim by some Christians is that she was an "Israelite Christian" should cause a laugh riot since Jesus didn't come for another 500 years..

    Scholars Debate History Versus Fiction


    In an article for the Journal of Biblical Literature, “The Book of Esther and Ancient Storytelling,” scholar Adele Berlin also writes about the scholarly concerns over Esther's historical accuracy. She outlines the work of several scholars in distinguishing authentic history from fiction in biblical texts. Berlin and other scholars concur that Esther is probably a historical novella, that is, a work of fiction that incorporates accurate historical settings and details.

    Like historical fiction today, the Book of Esther could have been written as an instructive romance, a way to encourage Jews facing oppression from Greeks and Romans. In fact, scholars Hirsch, Prince and Schechter go so far as to argue that the sole object of the Book of Esther was to provide some "back story" for the Feast of Purim, whose antecedents are obscure because it corresponds to no recorded Babylonian or Hebrew festival.


    How Did Queen Esther Save the Jewish People?
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    That is fascinating. I will check it out. I also did previous research on the book of Esther. There are some anomalies which sets it apart from most if not all of the other books in the old Testament:

    1. The divine name of God isn't mentioned directly but is present in acrostics (a form of writing in which a word is spelled out by placing each letter of the word at the beginning of corresponding sentences.

    2. It isn't referenced at any point by other books of the bible as far as I know.

    I think that this might support that evidence internally.
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Are you familiar with Aesop's Fables? We know they are fiction and were written to teach certain truths..

    I think the Book of Jonah and Esther were like that. I just don't like the story of Esther because of what happened to Queen Vashti.. She refused to dance for a room full of men who had been drunk for a week.
     
  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    HA! I used to read Aesop's fables when I was a kid. I am a graphic designer and love the arts. To me I see the patterns in things. So I don't miss the truths in fiction and lyrics of music. With regards to this you should check out Jordan Petersen's series of vids on the Bible and the psychology behind the stories. I don't agree with a lot of what he says but it makes a person think.

    I would think that Job is also a story like that. Because nobody speaks in poetry (I think that Job is a form of Hebrew poetry). So the words have been manipulated but the truth of the words are still relevant.
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    My literature teacher taught that Job was the greatest poem of all times..

    Most think its the oldest book in the Bible and may have been written before Moses.. Set east of Canaan, maybe Egypt or the land of Edom.. wherever Uz was..
     
  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I heard that as well. I tend to agree with your teacher. It has impacted me greatly. for some reason it taps into a part of my psyche that other things don't.
     
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  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    We were speaking of prophets and prophecy earlier and I finally found this again. It may interest you.

    It is common to think of prophecy as predictions, but to an Israelite mind prophecy is primarily a proclamation of previously known truth, a call to return and not to forget the important matters.

    Thus, the Book of Revelation can be called an apocalyptic letter containing prophecy, combining at least three genres in one document (apocalyptic, epistolary and prophetic).
     
  20. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Judaic Israelite, and not all of the New Testament may follow that religious grouping, the traditional religious grouping, associated with that [ that isn't modern judaism, by the way.
    I parallel my God belief with the Old Testament, and the religious things in the New Testament, are a syncretization. In other words, I don't change Deific or God names, because of the New Testament, or concepts.
    By 'non Christian', I mean non traditional, and I'm not aware of that sort of non traditional tribal listing, elsewhere.
    I read, or skimmed rather, two arguments concerning this, and neither seemed to peesent what might be the most logical reading, that a tribe was simply combined, and it is actually supposed to infer all the tribes, with, Levi.
    Now, Samson, I believe is quite easily associated with Jesus, and isn't bad, didn't realize Christians held that view, until just recently. So that is another 'strange', thing.
    Speaking of which, Jesus as a Nazarene, or Nazarite, might be very directly linked to Samson, [the Nazarite oath.

    Anyways, good stuff, you have a lot of information,

    Cheers
     
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