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Featured Romans 8, 1 Timothy 2 and the anointed

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Israel Khan, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading up on the topics "Mediator" and "New Covenant" in Insight into the Scriptures (sort of a biblical encyclopedia of the Jehovah's Witnesses). I have also read a past watchtower which discussed a Question from Readers article regarding 1 Timothy 2:6 which says:

    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."

    My understanding of what we have been told to believe is that Jesus is only the mediator between Jehovah and the anointed (The 144 000). The other sheep, witnesses who aren't of the anointed, have access to salvation through their faith. They have to be associated with Christ's representatives on earth who are the anointed. The implication of this is that only the anointed partake of the last supper re-enactment whereas the rest just pass the bread and wine around without partaking of it on the evening of the memorial of Christs death.

    My problem with this is that the JW understanding seems contrary to 1 Timothy 2 which indicates that Jesus is the only mediator between God and men. But if he is only the mediator between Jehovah and the anointed, then who is the mediator of the rest of us witnesses? Are the anointed our mediators?

    Their reasoning also seems to conflict with Romans 8. (They say Romans 8 only refers to the anointed.) Yet Romans 8 seems to say that one is either a joint heir with Christ (anointed) or one cannot please God (verse 8). The belief is that only the anointed are joint heirs with Christ, so does that mean that the faith of the rest of the true believers is pointless since they cannot please God? I have looked Romans 8 up on the Watchtower CD-rom and the JW library app looking for answers and what is suspicious is that there is no commentary dealing with Romans 8: 8-13 since 1975. And the last time verse 9 was discussed in 1975, verse 11 in 1974, verse 8 in 1964, verse 12 in 1960 and verses 10 and 13 were last discussed in 1938 which is innaccessible on the CD rom. The NWT makes references to other texts related to these scriptures but doesn't discuss them in context. These are the verses that don't seem to match their interpretation.

    Points of reference:

    Insight into the scriptures Vol 2, page 362 - Mediator
    Insight into the scriptures Vol , page 524 - Covenant (New covenant)
    Watchtower 1989 8/15, page 31 - Questions from readers

    I am interested in what anyone has to say about this interpretation of who Jesus is Mediator for. If I am wrong in my understanding then feel free to correct me.

    Would any other Christians agree with this interpretation of Romans and 1 Timothy as well?

    Looking forward to your replies.
     
  2. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    This has to do with sin and law. Sin is only imputed where there is law. If there is no law, there is no sin. As an example, marijuana laws used to be national in the USA. If you broke that law, anywhere in the USA, you made a civil sin and would be punished.

    Now in many states, this law has been revoked. Now if you do the exact same behavior, state to state, in some states it is not a sin, but in other states it is a sin. Sin needs law, without law there is no sin. If there is a law sin appears.

    Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. If a sin is forgiven, you end up in the same place as though the law has been made void. In both cases, there is no punishment for a behavior, as though no law is there. Technically, forgiveness of sins, is the same as doing away with the law. Sin is not inputed where there is no law. While forgiveness of sins means sin is not imputed.

    All and all, humans would continue to make laws, often for personal, political and material gains. Forgiveness of sins, by Jesus, made one exempt from law, in the Divine sense. However, not all humans will put God first, so one could still get punished for violating man's law, even though faith in Jesus means you are not under law; forgiven of sin is the same as no law.

    The Saints will understand this distinction, in spite of the conflicting messages. Faith implies the ability to act on impulse and accept your fate at the hands of man, as did Jesus.

    Revelation 13:10
    Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.


    Since sin is forgiven, any Holy Spirit impulse is allowable by Jesus, because of faith in the inner voice However, since you also live in human cultures, who still make laws, and may not accept all behavior, these same impulses can break human laws. However, you still need to place Jesus first and go with the impulse. This may result in a very uncertain fate at the hands of humans.

    Not everyone is able to deal with this suspension on a cross of faith. Those closest to the Saints, but who cannot fully follow Jesus and faith, will watch the behavior of the Saints, and try to bridge their divine behavior and the behavior for their human needs. They can't quite yet follow impulses and suffer the consequences. But they will do what they can, to remain safe in heaven and earth.

    The reason for this situation is the Anti-Christ takes over and makes changes in law sand times. Changes in times is connected to revisionist history, where the past is judged by the present, and the present is judged by the past, which is not rational. The Saints need to keep this all clear and act intuitively in the present. However this comes in conflict with their contemporaries who blindly follow the irrational law; children of the bondwoman. They wish to do good by the law. Those who live on th bridge try to figure out the Saints, while staying under cover, less the mob get them.
     
    #2 wellwisher, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Revelation 13:4 Commentary: The Image of Vespasian, the Beast, was worshipped in the Temple in Jerusalem. The Roman ensigns were military standards similar to flags today. What is interesting about the Roman ensigns was that along with the eagle, a symbol of Rome, was an image of the reigning emperor.

    The eschatological abomination that causes desolation is the Roman armies with their ensigns that literally caused the desolation of Israel. Josephus says the ensigns were an ABOMINATION to Jews (Ant. 18.3.1; 18.5.3).


    Vespasian and Titus are the 2 generals who waged war on Israel for three and a half years from A.D.67 to A.D. 70. In the midst of this war Vespasian became emperor while his son was also given the title “Caesar” at his father’s coronation. Caesar Titus was then sent back to Israel to finish the war. Under Titus’ command Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed. No 2 men had a more active role in the eschaton than Titus and Vespasian thus other than Jesus no one else is mentioned more in end time prophecy.


    If Jesus returned in His generation as He promised (MARK 14:61-62, JOHN 21:22-23 and MATTHEW 24), then our hope of heaven is secure. If not, then we as Christians “are of all people most to be pitied.” (1 Cor 15:19)
     
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  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Does Romans 2 below summarize your idea of sin well?

    Romans 2:

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    From what I understand from Romans, Paul is saying that the New Law that Christians are under is written on the heart instead of written up in an institution. I agree with your view of the Law and authorities.

    To summarize the question I would like answered: Is Christ the mediator for only 144000 Christians in your view? And are they the only ones under the law covenant?
     
  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Your interpretation of Revelation is fascinating. I am used to the Premillennialism understanding of the book of Revelation. Do you have any links to your understanding that I can check out?
     
    #5 Israel Khan, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    144,000 shouldn't be taken literally.
     
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  7. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. The Watchtower organisation takes the 144 000 literally yet they say that the tribes mentioned who are part of the 144 000 are purely symbolic which shows an inconsistency in interpretation.

    In fact, most of revelation they will take as symbolic. So why interpret the 144 000 to be literal?
     
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  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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  9. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! This stuff looks fascinating. I will definitely look through it. Many say that the last days is happening at present or will happen in the future. But I found it interesting recently that Peter quotes Joel's prophecy in Acts saying that Christians who then received Holy Spirit at pentecost was a fulfillment of Joels prophecy. That prophecy actually says it will happen in the last days so Peter was indicating that the last days were happening in his time. So its cool to have the Preterist commentary which would tie into that event.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    http://historycycles.org/revelation1.html?i=1

    All Prophecies Fulfilled! | 817-793-9461 | Preterist Bible Commentary

    Preterism isn't without its contradictions and controversies, but to me it makes more sense than claiming that Russia is Gog and Magog or that Jesus and John neglected the people of the first century church to talk to people thousands of years in the future.

    Further, Revelation is about Israel and the Roman Empire not the whole world.
     
  11. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense. Because context is King when it comes to the Bible. I wouldn't reject dual fulfillment of these prophecies though, much like old testament prophecies have dual fulfillment. What I see in the bible is that its lays out patterns about society that gets repeated throughout history. For instance this pattern:

    God has a people.
    They rebel.
    He sends an opposing nation on his behalf to defeat them as punishment.
    He punishes that opposing nation for being arrogant.
    He saves a faithful remnant of his people when he destroys that nation.
    He gives the faithful remnant land.
    Then the pattern repeats with slight variations.

    It happened when Israel was conquered by Babylon, then Syria. It happened again at jesus time and Christian Jews became the remnant that were saved when Jerusalem fell. In revelation it happens before the 1000 years which results in Satans chaining and then afterwards again when he is release.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    'Mediator', doesn't mean that Jesus is distinct from JHVH, who is called Yahweh, in Judaism.

    Jesus means, 'Jehovah with us', or, Yahweh with us, just like Emmanuel means God with us, El, or El Elyon, with us.

    Yeshua means who the Bible and Jewish Tanakh, calls Jehovah, and Yahweh, in Judaism, saves. Jesus is saving, 'Jehovah who is with us, is saving.

    In other words, the Bible doesn't make sense, unless Jesus is divine, and actually saving, John 5

    So, Jesus is "mediator", only in the context that Jesus is the one who is saving.

    Since Jesus is the only way to the father, He is saving, directly, in other words, or no one is saved, Biblically.
     
    #12 Desert Snake, Mar 2, 2019
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  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of mediator is one who has to be distinct from the two parties. So a person cannot be mediator (in my understanding) if he is the same being because then there is no mediatorship, but a direct interaction between the two. If Jesus is God then there is no need for him to be called a mediator then.

    But if you are saying that Jesus is mediator between the faithful and the Father, then that makes more sense to me. I think that the whole relationship between Jesus and his God is very complicated. Personally I see his relationship to God as being the same as Joseph to Pharoah, in which he was given all authority by Pharoah, yet he was not the same as Pharoah. So in my mind Jesus has the signet ring of God, sits on Gods throne and can be called God. In the original context in Isaiah, Emmanuel is a name for a child that was to be born in that time as well. He was said to be a sign indicating that Resin and Peka will be destroyed. So to me Emmanuel doesnt have to mean that Jesus is God because then in that case the original child named Emmanuel would also have to be God. But my view is subject to change if you present a thorough case.

    I always thought that both Jesus and Yeshua are the same name and both mean "Jehovah/Yahweh saves".

    I would agree with you nonetheless, that Jesus has to save directly and be mediator for all and not just a few select Christians, whether he is God or not.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Israel being conquered by Babylon and taken into exile is a strange event.. Only the good figs were taken to Babylon. The bad figs were left behind.
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I have actually never realized that before you mentioned it....

    What do you think the purpose of that was?
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I tend to believe that the early Church believed that Jesus was of God, thus the "essence" of God, but not actually God. To put it another way, that Jesus and God were in "essence" inseparable.
     
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  17. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well, he was for sure the image of God. What that exactly means I am not certain. Is your idea that he is the way God manifests in the real world maybe? So he is not completely God but a physical "projection" in a sense?
     
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  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The bad figs that were left behind weren't worth saving. God intended to destroy them and take their promised land from them.

    https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/jeremiah/24/·

    Also odd...

    Once a fig tree reaches maturity, it can be expected to produce fruit once to twice per year.
     
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  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    I see now... All the good figs were exiles in Jeremiah 24.

    Could the fact that fig trees produce fruit twice a year mean that there are two generations of figs? So Israel produce good figs that went to Babylon and would have produce good figs again (faithful ones) when they exiles returned to Israel? I am not sure what amount of time would be considered the year though.
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Ya, I think that's the gist of what I pick up from the early writings, especially since the Hellenistic concept of "essence" was and is used quite a bit within the Church.
     
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