Romans 1

[James the Persian]

Thankyou James for the info.. I didn't think there were any such apostles left here today..

I know of no apostles today, either. And certainly no Apostles. There are saints who lived after the Apostolic era who have the title of apostle or could be described as apostles because they were sent out to bring the gospel to new lands. Two relatively modern saints who could be described as apostles with a small 'a' would be St. Herman of Alaska (who took the faith to the Aleuts) and St. Nicholas of Japan, but calling them such would not be implying that they were in any way Apostles in the way the Twelve were, which is why I made the observation that we need to distinguish between Apostle and apostle.

James

 

[Scuba Pete]

It is amazing to see how Paul's apostleship was constantly being questioned. Either that or Paul had an inferiority complex! He keeps refering to the "so called apostles" or "super-apostles" in his reference to the initial 12. Quite the drama there.

 

[Aqualung]

Hi AL, Ok I am with you on the fact that to be an Apostle, you had to be one of the Twelve and called by Christ Jesus..To be on of the Twelve, they would have to have been there at the start of Jesus minestry,

Ok Paul was not one of the twelve, but he was still called to be an apostle by Christ Jesus, So I am guessing your point being, because Paul was not one of the twelve he was still an apostle called by Jesus so in turn there must still be apostles today that are not part of the twelve ?...is this what your getting at ?

Yep, that's what I'm getting at.

if so then, the same question,what makes an apostle today?

The same thing that made an apostle back then - being called of God to be an apostle.

 

[Aqualung]

I think you need to make a distinction between the Apostles and an apostle. An apostle is one who is sent out (that's what the word means), in Christianity to preach the Gospel. The Apostles are those chosen by Christ to do this, an apostle not necessarily. There are quite a few saints called 'The Apostle to X' that aren't either Paul or one of the Twelve. They were responsible for bringing nations to faith in Christ. The era of the Apostles was over when the last one, John, died butr that doesn't meant that there can't be more small 'a' apostles. For the Mormons here, though, I'm curious to ask why you think your Apostles are apostles at all. Are they sent out? I don't see any sign of such, though I appreciate that all Mormons do some missionary work I can't see that your Apostles have any special or unique missionary role. How then, are they apostles if they don't fulfill the meaning of the word? Is it just a title for you, divorced from the word's actual meaning?

James

They are unique in that they can recieve revelation about the church (like Paul and others did). They're Apostles, not just apostles.

The Apostles began as disciples in Mathew 10:1, apparently there were fewer apostles than disciples and not all disciples became apostles..I belive that all christians now are disciples..would that be about right ?

All people could be called deciples, but the fact that Jesus actually had to specifically name some of them Apostles means that's not just a title you can take upon yourself.

 

[James the Persian]

They are unique in that they can recieve revelation about the church (like Paul and others did). They're Apostles, not just apostles.

I think you missed the thrust of what I was asking. Are they sent out? If not, I fail to see how they are apostles at all. The word just doesn't seem to fit. The word usually used to describe someone who receives revelation would be prophet not apostle (though there is obviously an overlap). Interestingly, if you believe we must still have prophets because only they can receive revelation then it seems to me that you are limiting rather than adding to the Church. Just because we no longer believe there are Apostles doesn't mean that we believe all revelation, all prophecy, has ceased. There are plenty of saints that received revelations from God. I still don't really understand the place and roles of the Apostles in LDS doctrine.

James

 

[SoyLeche]

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=apostle$xhitlist_x=Simple$xhitlist_s=relevance-weight$xhitlist_d=$xhitlist_hc=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D$xhitlist_xsl=xhitlist.xsl$xhitlist_vpc=first$xhitlist_sel=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef

I have a horrible track record with links that I post, so hopefully this works. If it doesn't, you can go to www.lds.org, Search for apostle, and this was the first article that came up. It is called "And He Gave Some, Apostles"

Short answer, the apostles are a "traveling council" - so the name does work.

 

[Aqualung]

I think you missed the thrust of what I was asking. Are they sent out? If not, I fail to see how they are apostles at all.

They don't need to be literally "sent out" anymore when they can broadcast their talks to all the different nations from where they are.

The word usually used to describe someone who receives revelation would be prophet not apostle (though there is obviously an overlap).

Obviously. Apostles are said to be "prophets, revelators, and seers" in the church.

Interestingly, if you believe we must still have prophets because only they can receive revelation then it seems to me that you are limiting rather than adding to the Church.

They are the only ones who can receive revelation about specific church doctrine. I can receive revelation about my own life.

Just because we no longer believe there are Apostles doesn't mean that we believe all revelation, all prophecy, has ceased. There are plenty of saints that received revelations from God. I still don't really understand the place and roles of the Apostles in LDS doctrine.

James

They have a place because we believe in continued revelation. It's pretty much semantics in our case (the case of the difference between your church and ours). The people that you believe to be called of God to receive revelation about the church you call "saints." The people that we believe are called of God to receive revelation about the church we call "apostles."

 

[SoyLeche]

They don't need to be literally "sent out" anymore when they can broadcast their talks to all the different nations from where they are.

The Apostles still travel quite a bit - much more than their ancient counterparts (mileage wise, at least).

 

[Aqualung]

The Apostles still travel quite a bit - much more than their ancient counterparts (mileage wise, at least).

Huh. I knew they travelled some, I just didn't know how much. Though the part about broadcasting still stands. That's just now added to a lot of actual travel.

 

[Aqualung]

II Corinthians 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong! NIV

I don't see this happening today.

I do.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ok... please trot it out for us to "see" as well.

 

[glasgowchick]

Ok... please trot it out for us to "see" as well.

Im with You on this one ND..

 

[glasgowchick]

I do.

Since when and where do we see that kind of stuff going on today...According to Scripture 1Cor 13:8-10 all these things would cease.

 

[SoyLeche]

Since when and where do we see that kind of stuff going on today...According to Scripture 1Cor 13:8-10 all these things would cease.

Are you expecting the Apostles to be doing miracles that are on the news on a nightly basis? If you are, you're going to be disappointed. In the days of the early Apostles, most of the world had no idea who they were. Does that mean that they didn't do any miraculous acts? Just about every miracle that the apostles did which were written in the Bible has been repeated in some form or other in the last 180 or so years, including raising the dead. If you don't believe the accounts of those who witnessed them, though, there is no evidence that I can offer. I am left to wonder why you will believe 2000 year old accounts without evidence though.

Also, do you really want to debate with a Mormon whether prophecies, etc. ceased? We call it the Apostacy.

 

[Aqualung]

Since when and where do we see that kind of stuff going on today...According to Scripture 1Cor 13:8-10 all these things would cease.

It's not saying that one day all those things would cease and nobody would ever have them agian. It's saying that you can't prophesy 24/7; you can't speak in tongues 24/7; but you can be charitable 24/7.

 

[Aqualung]

Are you expecting the Apostles to be doing miracles that are on the news on a nightly basis? If you are, you're going to be disappointed. In the days of the early Apostles, most of the world had no idea who they were. Does that mean that they didn't do any miraculous acts? Just about every miracle that the apostles did which were written in the Bible has been repeated in some form or other in the last 180 or so years, including raising the dead. If you don't believe the accounts of those who witnessed them, though, there is no evidence that I can offer. I am left to wonder why you will believe 2000 year old accounts without evidence though.

Also, do you really want to debate with a Mormon whether prophecies, etc. ceased? We call it the Apostacy.

ARGH. :banghead3 Must. Spread. Frubals! :banghead3

 

[SoyLeche]

ARGH. :banghead3 Must. Spread. Frubals! :banghead3

It's the thought that counts :biglaugh:

 

[nutshell]

I am not an Apostle, but as one who holds the priesthood, I have participated in the healing of the sick, the casting out of demons, the blessing of a home, and more. These experiences are very sacred to me and to those I was serving, the details of which should not be shared lightly (don't cast pearls before swine -- and I am NOT calling any of you pigs, but I expect you understand the reference).

What I'm trying to say is, miracles do happen today.

Regarding 1 Corinth. 13:8-10. These verses refer to the high status of charity. I don't see how these verses conclude that prophesy would be gone forever. The verses also mention knowledge. Has knowledge of Christ vanished or does it still exist?

 

[Scuba Pete]

If you don't believe the accounts of those who witnessed them, though, there is no evidence that I can offer. I am left to wonder why you will believe 2000 year old accounts without evidence though.

Paul called himself the "last"... the last "what" would come to mind. But he talked about this while referring to himself as an Apostle.

But please, if you have evidence, credible evidence, (buried in the tomb type evidence) then please present it. I have not heard of this at all.

 

[SoyLeche]

Paul called himself the "last"... the last "what" would come to mind. But he talked about this while referring to himself as an Apostle.

But please, if you have evidence, credible evidence, (buried in the tomb type evidence) then please present it. I have not heard of this at all.

I have eye witness accouts (actually, I'd have to look them up, and I can't do that at this time) - but I would assume that this isn't enough for you. On the other hand, what types of credible evidence do you have for Peter walking on water?