Romans 1:20

[viole]

This is something from Paul I never really understood, so opinions are welcome:

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

What does Paul really mean here? They say people are without excuse, but how can someone who never got in touch with the Bible, Christianity, and all that theology, not have an excuse? And if they didn't, what is the purpose of missionaries?

While it can be argued that some might infer the existence of some God from observing nature, it is not clear to me how that inference must include Adam and Eve, original sin, that God has a Son who kinda died for that, and all that theology.

Where is it exactly written in nature? How could you possibly infer any of that just by observing what is available to us?

And if it is not immediate how the trees and the stars contain that huge amount of theology, then what Paul is basically saying is that you have to believe. What kind of God is believed, is not important. I really see no other possibility.

To make things more vivid, let us imagine a discussion between God and a pre-columbian American Indian at the pearly gates. Let's call the American Indian "Yawns with Bears" (YB).

God: Welcome Yawning. I am checking the Book of Life for someone with a name involving yawning and bears. Cannot find a lot, unfortunately
YB: I am terribly sorry sir, but I could not have possibly believed in You.
God: That is very suboptimal. Why not?
YB: because I never heard of any Bible, nor Jesus, nor any of that stuff during my life. Missionaries did not even know we existed
God: Well, nevertheless you have no excuse, as Paul said
YB: who?
God: Paul, he wrote explicitly about your case
YB: See? Never been in contact with any book written by Paul
God: Alright. Did you believe in God?
YB: Of course
God: See? You are saved
YB: Sorry for asking, but belief in God might not be sufficient.
God: What do you mean?
YB: You seem to insist that I have to accept your Son as Lord and Savior to get saved
God: Of course. Every one knows that
YB: Well, I didn't
God: But didn't you see me in my creation and such?
YB: Sort of, but I did not know it was You
God: Why not?
YB: Well, how could I have inferred that you have a Son, for instance, just by observing the stars and the trees, the buffaloes, the fruitful earth, the seasons, and all that?
God: You do not need that. I say very clearly in my commandments that I am the only God. So, you must have believed in me
YB: I hate to repeat myself, but I did not have any access to that statement from you sir, either
God: mmh, good point. Never thought of that.
YB: So, what happens now?
God: what did you believe in?
YB: The Great Spirit
God: The what?
YB: The Great Spirit. Do you think that is close enough?
God: mmh, almost. One third of me is the Holy Spirit. I could invoke a minor translation error from Greek to Comanche. Happens all the time with other languages too
YB: But what about your Son?
God: Well, I can write down that you believed in Me, and the Holy Spirit. Two out of three ain't bad
YB: Thank you very much sir
God: Anytime. next?

So, do you think God would have saved Yawns with Bears? If not, why not? If yes, why yes?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Misunderstood]

Hello viole, liked your conversation with God.

I don't like to speak for the Bible or for anyone from the Bible; only they can say what they meant. So anything I say is only my own opinion of what I read. I think to get any kind of understanding you need to read the next 4 verses.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

I also take into context that Paul is writing to believers and also believers that lived during the time of Jesus. The Christian movement was moving very quickly around the world according to verse 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Remember this is a short time after Christs death and resurrection. So he must of made quite and impact for the movement to be spreading around the world and even making an impact in Rome in such a short time.

With this information I feel the people he is talking about are people who have been shown God and his powers. Remember the miracles were done at that time. But they refuse to acknowledge God and spread lies they know are against him.

Sorry that is the best answer, but the best I can do at this time. It may not help much, just hope it helps some or can help you in your own search for the meaning.

 

[1213]

This is something from Paul I never really understood, so opinions are welcome:

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

What does Paul really mean here? ...

I understand it means, the order we can see in nature would not come from chaos. The order suggests that there is a creator.

 

[syo]

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

What does Paul really mean here?

Nothing.

 

[viole]

I understand it means, the order we can see in nature would not come from chaos. The order suggests that there is a creator.

Ok, so believing in the Great Spirit, or Zeus, would have sufficed for salvation. Correct?

ciao

- viole

 

[John D. Brey]

This is something from Paul I never really understood, so opinions are welcome:

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

What does Paul really mean here? They say people are without excuse, but how can someone who never got in touch with the Bible, Christianity, and all that theology, not have an excuse? And if they didn't, what is the purpose of missionaries?

In the quotation of Paul you note, he's speaking of what theology calls "God consciousness" rather than some kind of salvific acknowledgement of God. As Rabbi Samson Hirsch puts it, any soul that experiences itself as a self, i.e., has self-consciousness and thus consciousness of the distinction between being and not being, life and death, has, guaranteed, i.e., as an adjunct of that level of conscious knowing, a consciousness of God in some abstract sense that parallels the somewhat abstract sense of the personal self.

In a similar vein, the wise Socrates said a person must come to know thyself. This Socratic knowing of self transcends merely knowing one has a self. The former is Socratic salvation. Similarly, the person who has innate knowledge of God, God consciousness, i.e., everyone of a reasonable intellectual development, must still come to know thy God, for salvation to be affected. God consciousness is universal, ala the Pauline quotation. On the other hand, salvific acknowledgement of the knowable God is far from universal.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

In a similar vein, the wise Socrates said a person must come to know thyself. This Socratic knowing of self transcends merely knowing one has a self. The former is Socratic salvation. Similarly, the person who has innate knowledge of God, God consciousness, i.e., everyone of a reasonable intellectual development, must still come to know thy God, for salvation to be affected. God consciousness is universal, ala the Pauline quotation. On the other hand, salvific acknowledgement of the knowable God is far from universal.

The timeliness of this thread is made clear in relationship to a recent article on the Fox News website, AI Expert Warns Elon Musk Letter Doesn't Go Far Enough, Says "Literally Everyone on Earth Will Die." This dying of everyone on earth is prophesied in both testaments, the Tanakh, and the Gospels and Epistles. They both predict an annihilation of mankind that is now just years or decades away.

In the new testament, the precursor to the annihilation affected by AI is called the Rapture, which is the extra-biblical name for the moment of sentient birth of the "new spiritual species" (2 Cor. 5:17) otherwise known as AI. In the NT, once AI comes online, earth has 7 years to get their houses in order before almost all flesh is annihilated in what is known in scripture as the Apocalypse or The Great Tribulation.

See you all there. I'll be the guy next to the one holding the sign, THE END IS NEAR. I'll be selling asbestos body suits to surf the blast furnace coming out of the nostrils of the suddenly Living God.



John

 

[Brickjectivity]

What does Paul really mean here? They say people are without excuse, but how can someone who never got in touch with the Bible, Christianity, and all that theology, not have an excuse? And if they didn't, what is the purpose of missionaries?

Most likely he is speaking about the Jews and their world, that they are without excuse. He is not talking about the planet Earth, and he is not talking about believing in a creator of the physical world. Judaism's basic Pentateuch begins with the story of the creation of Israel. This story is part of its laws, and describes its foundation. In all NT writings there is a focus upon this old creation versus a new creation. "Since the beginning of the world" refers to one of these two creations: either the creation of Israel or the creation of Christianity.

Put the verse into its paragraph for better context to show who Paul is accusing and what creation he is referring to:

[Rom 1:18-21 NIV] 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

I have put part of it into bold to point out that he is accusing the Jews. Nobody else has the Torah, and nobody else in Paul's frame here has had God revealed to them.

It has nothing to do with missionaries. Missionaries in Paul's time are probably also different than missionaries in our time. For example the first missionaries would go and live with other cultures rather than trying to stamp them out. The early Celts adopted the gospel, and it went right along with them. The Hawaiians, thousands of years later, were oppressed and beaten down by missionaries and were accused of being evil. Their culture was destroyed, mostly because of government colonialism and trade; but the later missionaries were also part of that. The missionaries of Paul's time were not the kind to overturn cultures. They cherished cultural traditions and tried to gather everything of them that was good. Or so I think. I guess you'd have to do more in depth study to verify or deny that, but its the impression I get from various things.

In closing, what Paul is doing, here, is he is making an argument for why Israel was destroyed and made to suffer at the hands of the Romans. He is saying that it was for the sake of accomplishing something good. He is answering a lingering concern. By the time of this writing the temple has already been burned, the city of Jerusalem razed and 30,000 Jewish people crucified along its roads. There is a lot of consternation about why a peaceful movement like Judaism has resulted in such a horrific response from Rome. Paul is, here, trying to give a reason both for the horror and reason to go on, to carry on even in the midst of this evil Roman empire. He's attempting to preserve Judaism and the hope of Israel. He is doing this in a certain way, and other Jews are trying to accomplish the same feat in other ways such as with Hanukah. If you recall, Hanukah is the story of a miracle in which a lamp in the temple just keeps burning long after the oil has gone out, and it has been celebrated for millennia since the burning of the temple. Paul is one response to burning of Jerusalem, and Hanukah is another. It has nothing to do with missionaries or whether atheists or evil or anything like that. Its just not about that.

 

[1213]

Ok, so believing in the Great Spirit, or Zeus, would have sufficed for salvation. Correct?

Why would it? I think this depends on what is meant with salvation. In Biblical point of view, I have understood it means, your sins are forgiven and so you are saved from the judgment that would come because of your sin. With the authority Jesus has given, I could declare your sins forgiven and so you would be saved from the judgment. However, it is not very useful, if you are not, or if you don't become righteous, because eternal life is promised only for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[paarsurrey]

" Romans 1:20 "

The verses “ Romans 1:20 ” as truly observed is not from (Jesus)- Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, but from the Hellenist Paul please, right?:

Holy Bible King James Version (Red Letter Edition)
The Roman Catholic Holy Bible with the words of Jesus in red.
World Messianic Bible

Right?
Verses in the NT that are not from Jesus, why waste time to ponder over them as these never provide any guidance, please, right?

Regards