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Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have heard many Roman Catholics say that theirs is the "original Church" established by Jesus Christ. I don't know anywhere near as many people of the Eastern Orthodox faith but I can't recall ever having heard them say that. I am vaguely aware of the reasons behind the split between these two Christian factions, but I'm wondering if Eastern Orthodox Christianity also claims that it is the "original Church" and if it sees Roman Catholicism as having broken away from them instead of the other way around.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The separation was simply the first of many. This division was more a question of culture; Greek vs Roman, geography, regional hierarchial rivalry that led to the division of Rome. The theological differences were not sufficient to be the cause, Neither left the other they just went separate ways as two political cultural and regional hierarchies.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
@Shiranui117 :D

To simply answer your question - yes, Eastern Orthodox Christians view the Catholic Church as breaking away from them. I suppose the Oriental Orthodox would view both as breaking away from them, however...
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Perhaps another interesting question would be why we see so many branches of the "Catholic" faith identify with geographical locations? Eastern? Russian? Greek? Serbian? etc.

Do they all teach the same doctrines and follow the same practices, or are they all different? If they are different, what are the differences and why?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I may easily be mistaken, but it seems to me that the Schism is largely a matter of the perception of the scope of authority of the Pope.

Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxies seem to organize themselves on largely national lines, with roughly equal authority given to each national Patriarch. From their perspective, the current Pope is a direct successor of the previous Patriarchs of Rome.

How legitimate a claim any of the current Churches has to being "original" is IMO unavoidably a matter of arbitrary interpretation. It may easily be argued that no original Christian Church exists in this day, and even that it would be a bad thing if it did.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This may help, although it says there are issues with it. History of the Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia

To the east of where I live there were about 70 pioneer 'onion' (a name the kids gave them) churches. You had to go read the plaque on the door ... Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, Greek orthodox, and more if I remember right. Beautiful buildings.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Perhaps another interesting question would be why we see so many branches of the "Catholic" faith identify with geographical locations? Eastern? Russian? Greek? Serbian? etc.

Do they all teach the same doctrines and follow the same practices, or are they all different? If they are different, what are the differences and why?
That is indeed an interesting thing to study, but the answer should be self-evident in its general outline: because "Catholic" means "Universal", as in "universally valid".

Yet their very existence as separate Churches with largely autonomous leaderships makes it unavoidable and arguably necessary to have some measure of divergence of doctrine.

That may easily be a good thing, too.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I have heard many Roman Catholics say that theirs is the "original Church" established by Jesus Christ. I don't know anywhere near as many people of the Eastern Orthodox faith but I can't recall ever having heard them say that. I am vaguely aware of the reasons behind the split between these two Christian factions, but I'm wondering if Eastern Orthodox Christianity also claims that it is the "original Church" and if it sees Roman Catholicism as having broken away from them instead of the other way around.

I know an Ethiopian Orthodox woman who insists that her church is the Original :) She also says that they have to Arc of the Covenant. I don't see the value of artifacts and suspicion that valuing them too much amounts to idol worship. I'm uneasy about the Kaaba in Mecca, Christmas Trees, and images of The Christ nailed to crosses, and the Angel on top of the Mormon Temples. No criticism actually, but I wonder because of the context of the 1st Commandment.

We all have to do our best, inshallah.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thanks for the answers so far. I have always been under the impression that the split that took place in 1054 had more to do with a disagreement concerning the understanding of the Trinity than anything else. My real question, though, is still whether the Orthodox believe that they are the "Mother Church" and that it was the Roman Catholic Church who broke away?

I'm also a bit curious about the leadership in Eastern Orthodoxy. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no single individual who is seen in the same way as the Roman Catholic Church sees the Pope. If I'm right about that, where does the buck stop in terms of policy making, etc.?
 

Duke_Leto

Active Member
Thanks for the answers so far. I have always been under the impression that the split that took place in 1054 had more to do with a disagreement concerning the understanding of the Trinity than anything else. My real question, though, is still whether the Orthodox believe that they are the "Mother Church" and that it was the Roman Catholic Church who broke away?

Of course they do. I think that to any outside observer, the Orthodox churches would be judged to be more -- well, "orthodox", than Catholics. But yeah, the split had very little to do with the Filioque. Far more important were the power grabs of the Patriarchs of Rome, and how these were seen in the east. I think the Orthodox were quite right, considering the record of the Popes: the western Popes have demonstrated a lust for temporal power; fighting wars to gain territory in Italy, sanctioning Catholic invasions of other Catholic-ruled lands for petty political reasons, the list goes on. In the east, even the Ecumenical Patriarch had virtually no political power, let alone the rest of the church, save by influencing public opinion, and so remained free of corruption.

I'm also a bit curious about the leadership in Eastern Orthodoxy. Unless I'm mistaken, there is no single individual who is seen in the same way as the Roman Catholic Church sees the Pope. If I'm right about that, where does the buck stop in terms of policy making, etc.?

Councils convene and essentially vote on dogma.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I have heard many Roman Catholics say that theirs is the "original Church" established by Jesus Christ. I don't know anywhere near as many people of the Eastern Orthodox faith but I can't recall ever having heard them say that. I am vaguely aware of the reasons behind the split between these two Christian factions, but I'm wondering if Eastern Orthodox Christianity also claims that it is the "original Church" and if it sees Roman Catholicism as having broken away from them instead of the other way around.

The history between the two is complicated as there is a series of breaks. But more importantly is to acknowledge they both remain, regardless of the differences, one Catholic church in the sense that we share the same sacramental theology, though they are administered differently, and apostolicity and the recognition of a valid priesthood.
In recognition of these facts, in 1965 Pope Paul VI (1963–78) and Patriarch Athenagoras (1948–72) revoked the excommunications of 1054 as a first step towards healing the schism between the churches; it was not an act that resolved the schism itself.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/eastern-schism
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The history between the two is complicated as there is a series of breaks. But more importantly is to acknowledge they both remain, regardless of the differences, one Catholic church in the sense that we share the same sacramental theology,
We don't, actually. We don't bother with things like "valid but not licit" Sacraments. We accept the baptisms of some Trinitarian non-Orthodox based on oikonomia (a Greek term that means "management of the household", but within Orthodox canon law it refers to bending the rules for the sake of a person's spiritual benefit). Also, we don't really hold to Transubstantiation as the Romans do; we believe that the bread and the wine are the Body and Blood of Christ, but native Orthodox theology doesn't dabble in Aristotelian categories of "accidents" and "essence". The Eucharist is a symbol of Christ's Body and Blood, but how we understand that term is very, very different from how Protestants and Catholics understand it. Western Christians tend to understand a symbol as something that is an analogy or a metaphor for something else, without making that thing actually present. However, in the writings of the Fathers, a symbol is something that makes something else present; a statue of the emperor makes the emperor really present (hence why destroying a statue of an emperor in a city lead to a full-fledged massacre of thousands of people in that city). Catholics say that for the Body and Blood of Christ to be truly present in the Eucharist, His Essence has to replace that of the bread and wine; they're no longer there at all except in their outward forms. ManyProtestants say that the Eucharist is merely an analogy or a reminder of His Body and Blood, but there is no presence of Christ there.

We reject Thomist theology in its entirety. I'm sure plenty of Orthodox hold to the Catholic view of Transubstantiation; after all, many Orthodox over the last several centuries have been influenced strongly by Jesuit thinkers, especially in Russia when Peter the Great wanted to Westernize his country. Now we're starting to return to an authentically Patristic sacramentology and eschew the medieval Scholastic paradigms.

Also, Orthodox understand the Sacrament of Confession not as being administered by the priest/bishop, but rather as being administered by Christ, with the clergyman as a witness of the confession. The priest or bishop doesn't absolve the penitent on his own authority, but rather pronounces Christ's forgiveness of the sins.

And as far as holy orders goes, we don't believe like the Catholics that ordaining someone to the ranks of the clergy places an "indelible mark" on the soul that forever marks them as a clergyman. If a priest, bishop or deacon is defrocked and removed from their position, they cease entirely to be able to administer the Sacraments. Likewise, if a bishop ordained by the Orthodox Church goes into schism, he ceases to be a bishop, and thus any attempts made by him to ordain someone to the priesthood or the episcopate will do absolutely nothing. This is why many Orthodox will say that the Catholics have no clergy at all, and this is also why schismatic splinter sects of so-called "Orthodox" people are unrecognized; holy orders only exist within the Church. Catholics, on the contrary, recognize the holy orders of anybody who is ordained in lines of apostolic succession, regardless of their denomination, as they draw a distinction between valid sacraments (i.e. the reality of the sacraments), and licit sacraments (sacraments that are performed within and with the blessing of the Catholic Church). This is why Catholics recognize the ordinations of most Anglicans and even some High Church Lutherans in countries like Sweden where Catholic bishops defected to the Reformation. The Orthodox, however, require that all incoming clergy from churches with holy orders either be ordained as Orthodox clergy, or vested to fulfill whatever might have been lacking in the holy orders of other Christian bodies.

In recognition of these facts, in 1965 Pope Paul VI (1963–78) and Patriarch Athenagoras (1948–72) revoked the excommunications of 1054 as a first step towards healing the schism between the churches; it was not an act that resolved the schism itself.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/eastern-schism
Revoking the excommunications of 1054 did absolutely nothing. It was an empty symbolic gesture, as those excommunications applied to exactly two people--the Pope of Rome (who unbeknownst to Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Michael Cerularius was already dead anyway), and the Patriarch of Constantinople.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Perhaps another interesting question would be why we see so many branches of the "Catholic" faith identify with geographical locations? Eastern? Russian? Greek? Serbian? etc.
The Catholic Church is overwhelmingly and almost entirely made up of the Roman (or Latin) Church--more than a billion Roman Catholics versus about 20 million Eastern Catholics. These Eastern Catholics are almost entirely former Orthodox Christians who for various reasons split off from their Orthodox parent churches and came into communion with the Bishop of Rome. These reasons are often political in nature; for example, within the Austro-Hungarian Empire, many Ukrainians and Carpatho-Rusyns (also called Ruthenians) became Catholic due to the missionary efforts of Jesuits and political pressure being put on them by the Austrians to become Catholic. With the exception of the Maronite Catholics, the Eastern Catholics came to exist either for political reasons or due to contact with Catholic missionaries and theologians. Each time a group of former Orthodox became Catholic, they were given their own church--Melkite Catholics in Syria, Chaldean Catholics in Iraq, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Serbian Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Coptic Catholics in Egypt, Ge'ez Catholics in Ethiopia, Eritrean Catholics, Ruthenian Catholics in eastern Slovakia, western Ukraine and southern Poland, Maronite Catholics in Lebanon and Syria, and a smattering of Catholics in other countries which are otherwise historically Orthodox.

Historically, Christians have always organized themselves into regional churches bound together by shared culture and language, and these regional churches were united by their shared Eucharist (or Lord's Supper if you prefer) and faith. All Catholics are bound to the same dogmas, the Magisterium (the teaching body of the Catholic Church), and the Pope of Rome. We Orthodox, however, don't see any one man as being the source of the Church's unity, save the God-Man Jesus Christ.

Do they all teach the same doctrines and follow the same practices, or are they all different? If they are different, what are the differences and why?
They all follow their own native liturgical and spiritual traditions which Rome let them keep. They also follow their own theological traditions, with the caveat that they have to accept Roman dogmas concerning the Papacy, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory and other things, and therefore their theological traditions also have to conform to Rome. However, it seems the Melkite Catholics in large part refuse to recognize the dogma of Papal Supremacy, which would actually put them outside the Catholic fold if Rome actually decided to do anything about it, which so far they haven't for the last 150 years.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I have heard many Roman Catholics say that theirs is the "original Church" established by Jesus Christ.
They were one of the various regional churches established by the Apostles, but Rome was by no means the only one--a simple perusal of Acts, the first three chapters of Revelation and the titles of the Pauline Epistles will tell you that much. Corinth, Thessaloniki, Athens, Thyatira, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria and all the other cities named in the New Testament are or were Orthodox until this present day. A lot of the churches in Asia Minor have since either been exterminated by the Turks during the Greek and Armenian genocides, or moved elsewhere; Ephesus, for example, no longer exists because its harbor dried up, and Smyrna was a city that was hit especially hard during the genocides, with many Greeks and Armenians literally swimming for their lives to Greece. I met a friend and his family in Athens for Easter this year who are actually descended from some of those same Anatolian Greeks.

I don't know anywhere near as many people of the Eastern Orthodox faith but I can't recall ever having heard them say that.
I am vaguely aware of the reasons behind the split between these two Christian factions, but I'm wondering if Eastern Orthodox Christianity also claims that it is the "original Church" and if it sees Roman Catholicism as having broken away from them instead of the other way around.
We absolutely do see ourselves as being the authentic continuation of the New Testament Church, and we do see the Roman Catholics as having gone astray and into heresies, adding new "dogmas" which are nowhere to be found in either the New Testament or in the Fathers of the Church from St. Ignatius of Antioch in 105 AD right on down to the Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787.

Our two churches split primarily over arguments about the Filioque and the growing claims of the Papacy to more and more power over the Church. The Orthodox, like the early Church of the New Testament, sees the ecumenical (or all-church) council as being the ultimate authority when matters of dogma are at stake. An ecumenical council is a representative meeting of all the clergy of the Orthodox Church--Russian, Constantinopolitan, Antiochian, Jerusalem, Serbian, etc. Compare the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, where the Apostles and the presbyters. As a side note, presbyteros in Greek is the word meaning "priest"; in the Church of the first century, there wasn't yet a formal division between the offices of bishop and priest, which would happen once Christianity grew beyond small little clusters in individual cities. Getting back to the point, in order for an ecumenical council to be deemed as such, it must be in harmony with the Apostolic Tradition (the teachings of the Apostles as found in the New Testament, our liturgies, and the understanding of the faith passed down from generation to generation and often written down by the Fathers). They must also stand the test of time; the various ecumenical councils were always deemed to be such by later synods and councils of the Church. An ecumenical council must also be accepted by the laity. For example, the Catholic attempts to heal the schism at the Council of Florence-Ferrara in the 1400's were rejected by the Orthodox laypeople, even though the Orthodox bishops signed onto them due to both political pressures from the Byzantine Emperor so he could recruit Western powers to save Constantinople from the Ottomans, and also theological influences from Scholastic thought which had begun seeping into the ranks of Orthodox theologians.

The Catholics, however, see the ultimate authority in the Church not in ecumenical councils, but in the Pope of Rome, who is called the "Universal Bishop" (a title which Pope St. Gregory the Great in the 600's said was the forerunner to the Antichrist) and "Vicar of Christ on earth". He is above even an ecumenical council; nothing can contradict his rulings. The Dictatus Papae read as follows:
  • (1) The Roman Church was founded by God alone.
  • (2) The Roman Pontiff alone can with right be called "Universal".
  • (3) He alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
  • (4) In council, his Legate, even if a lower grade, is above all bishops and can pass sentence of deposition against them.
  • (7) For him alone is it lawful, according to the needs of the time, to make new laws, to assemble together new congregations, to make an abbey of a canonry, and, on the other hand, to divide a rich bishopric and unite the poor ones.
  • (8) He alone may use the Imperial Insignia.
  • (9) All princes shall kiss the feet of the Pope alone.
  • (12) It may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
  • (13) It may be permitted to him to transfer bishops, if need be.
  • (14) He has the power to ordain the clerk of any parish he wishes.
  • (18) A sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one. He alone may retract it.
  • (19) He himself may be judged by no one.
  • (22) The Roman Church has never erred. Nor will it err, to all eternity--Scripture being witness.
  • (23) The Roman Pontiff, if he has been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter, St. Ennodius Bishop of Pavia bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As it is contained in the decrees of Pope St. Symmachus.
  • (25) He may depose and reinstate bishops without assembling a Synod.
  • (26) He who is not at peace with the Roman Church shall not be considered 'catholic'.
Needless to say, the Orthodox were absolutely unwilling to indulge the Pope in these tyrannical claims to power, and so we let the Roman Church schism from us. The entire ideas of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy are completely antithetical to how the early Church operated, and Catholics try in vain to find examples of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy in the Fathers.

Many on both sides today see the Filioque clause as being less important and not much reason to entirely split the Church, but it does highlight differences in how we do theology, so for the sake of completeness I'll explain...

In the original text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the section on the Holy Spirit reads thus: "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who has spoken by the prophets." This is how we Orthodox still say it in church. However, the Roman Catholics added in the phrase "and the Son" (Latin Filioque) so that it reads, "And we believe in the Holy Spirit... Who proceeds from the Father and the Son." This addition to the Creed was made by a local council in Toledo, Spain in the 600's to combat an uptick in the Arian heresy in the region, though for centuries it was vigorously opposed by the Popes; Pope St. Leo III, for example, had the Creed engraved on silver shields (without the Filioque) and hung on the doors of St. Peter's in Rome in an act of protest against this innovation of the Filioque. However, under the pressure of the Carolingian and later Holy Roman Empires, eventually the Popes capitulated and the Filioque began to be recited throughout the Roman Church. This change to the Creed, in Orthodox eyes, diminishes the role of the Holy Spirit, and also confuses the persons of the Father and the Son. The Father alone in Orthodox Trinitarian theology is seen as being the source of the Trinity and also its unity; both the Son and the Spirit derive their Personhood and their Divinity from Him. This is why we say that "the Father is the only true God", because He is the fountain of the Godhead.

On the flip side, in the theology of Thomas Aquinas, Catholics claim that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son--effectively, the Holy Spirit has the source of His being from two Persons (what is called "double spiration"). However, Catholics deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from two sources, and says that He instead proceeds from the Father and the Son "as from one source". The Orthodox would ask, then, where the Father ends and the Son begins, as this setup effectively makes the Father and the Son the same Person, which would be a kind of Modalism. Indeed, we Orthodox see Catholic Trinitarian theology as a whole as being a departure from that of the Fathers, placing the unity of the Trinity on the Divine Essence, rather than on the Person of the Father, as the Fathers of the Church had done.

The separation was simply the first of many. This division was more a question of culture; Greek vs Roman, geography, regional hierarchial rivalry that led to the division of Rome. The theological differences were not sufficient to be the cause, Neither left the other they just went separate ways as two political cultural and regional hierarchies.
While linguistic and geographical factors did certainly come into play, these factors informed many of the theological divisions between the two churches. Cultural differences aren't reason to split the Church, otherwise one would expect Russia and Antioch to split.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Also, we don't really hold to Transubstantiation as the Romans do; we believe that the bread and the wine are the Body and Blood of Christ, but native Orthodox theology doesn't dabble in Aristotelian categories of "accidents" and "essence".

The theory of Transubstantiation to explain the dogma of the Real Presence was in defense against those who like Zwingly acknowledged that the Eucharist was a fitting symbol but "merely" a symbol. Without explaining further the bottom line is we both, East and West believe in the Real presence of the Eucharistic bread.
As for Trinitarian belief there is a difference between the concept of Persons, in the Catholic Church they are equal to, not subordinate to.

The priest or bishop doesn't absolve the penitent on his own authority, but rather pronounces Christ's forgiveness of the sins.

I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Revoking the excommunications of 1054 did absolutely nothing. It was an empty symbolic gesture,

Be that as it may, I prefer to acknowledge what is held in common than what divides us.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps another interesting question would be why we see so many branches of the "Catholic" faith identify with geographical locations? Eastern? Russian? Greek? Serbian? etc.

Do they all teach the same doctrines and follow the same practices, or are they all different? If they are different, what are the differences and why?

They are largely the Orthodox Church, not in communion with Rome. They are either autonomous (self-governing but under the authority of another church) or autocephalous, meaning fully independent. Yet they are all in communion with each other, with no central leader like the pope. The bishops rule as a body. Their doctrines are somewhat different, one of the reasons for the split between the east and west; their services are different, i.e. Orthodox tend to be longer and more elaborate. But they both believe the are fulfilling Jesus's request to "do this in memory of me".

Source: I was Roman Catholic, then Eastern Orthodox.
 
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