Slow down! Lol. I’m not in it yet. I’ve attended mass a couple times and am genuinely curious, but I’ve only scratched the surface.
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Roman Catholic Church
- Thread starter Watchmen
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Just don't become a born-again Evangelical!
Axe Elf
Prophet
Fine. But it says not to call anyone "father" in Matthew 23:9. Presumably, you are still allowed to call people priests (or elders).
InChrist
Free4ever
If you are looking for a structured, elaborate religion Catholicism is a good choice.
Being raised Catholic, all I knew about relating to God or getting to heaven revolved around the long process that begins with baptism and from then on depends upon one's continued relationship to the Church. Salvation and eternal life comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, suffering for one's sins and the sins of others here and/or in purgatory, indulgences to reduce time in purgatory, and continual Masses and rosaries said on one's behalf even after one's death.
Personally receiving Christ as my Savior and knowing freedom from sin and the promise of eternal life was like a huge weight lifted and a breath of pure, fresh air I was never told about or experienced in Catholicism.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, salvation and eternal life do not come from sacraments, penance and good works. Like so many other churches, the Catholic church completely ignores the Bible and believes many things not in the Bible. You are saved by the grace of God through faith. Jesus never made the sign of the cross or prayed a rosary or worshipped statues of saints. They believe the priest can change bread into Christ's body which is not biblical. Purgatory is not Biblical. The Protestant churches are not much better butthey avoid some of the mistakes of the Catholic church.
Admittedly, I’m a rookie on Catholic teachings, but I have a strong suspicion you’re misstating some Catholic teachings and traditions.
Sounds to me like you found emotional satisfaction in the ceremony.
Does intellectual satisfaction come into it at any level? It doesn't for a great many believers (and not a little nonbelief is from emotion rather than intellect), but I thought I'd ask.
One must be a baptized Christian to enter the Catholic communion. The relationship to the Church is secondary to a personal relationship with Jesus. Without this relationship all else is mere habit.
With all its many faults, I believe the Church to be the highest expression of faith.
Despite its long history it is not frozen in time and recognizes the need for renewal, even though it seems to measures time in centuries not decades.
The Church does not nor has it ever, claimed to be without sin. The Church is a church of sinners.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not to debate, but to explain where you are not correct.
BTW, why would you come here and trash that which someone else is interested in?
It simply does not do that and, as a matter of fact, Catholic Canon Law forbids the acceptance of any doctrine that the Bible opposes. I grew up in a church that made such claims that you are posting but found out later just how wrong that claim actually is.
Catholics do not worship statues as there's a difference between "worship" and "veneration".
The priest does not change it-- God does through the offering of his and the entire community's prayers, which is found in John's gospel whereas he says it's real blood and real body. However, that's best understood in more of a Platonic ("essence") versus a literal sense.
It is an interpretation, which I can explain if you'd like. Now, whether it's a correct interpretation is another matter.
BTW, why would you come here and trash that which someone else is interested in?
The second century of Christianity had scarcely begun when the name of the Catholic Church was already in use.
A.D. 107, a bishop, St. Ignatius of Antioch in the Near East wrote
"Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2).
8:1 But avoid divisions, as being the beginning of evils. Do ye all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ doth the Father; and follow the presbyters as the apostles; and have respect unto the deacons as unto the commandment of God. Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it.
8:2 Wherever the bishop appear, there let the multitude be; even as wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure.
The Bible is not 'ignored' but a product of the Catholic Church.
‘Scripture is to be proclaimed, heard, read, received and experienced as the word of God.
Great question. I think the emotional and spiritual satisfaction comes from mass. As for the intellectual, I think that comes from personal study outside mass. That’s what I’m doing now though it’s up for debate whether I find it satisfying.
I attended a Catholic Church for years. When I was trying my best to figure out how to become a Catholic, I found lots to object to and plenty of negatives. After I realized I would never become one, I was able to step back and see more of the positives.
I think my ex's church is a good metaphor for my feelings on Catholicism: it's very old and very pretty, and lots of people seem drawn to it, but I would refuse to kneel in it because of what was preached there.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And please take your time as there really is no need to rush into it, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Some here can help you along with this, but let me ask you this, namely are you involved in the local church's RCIA program? If not, are you aware of how it functions?
Whatever you may decide, enjoy the journey of discovery. As you're maybe aware of, I'm not Catholic, although I have great respect for Catholic moral theology and use it as a sense of direction personally.
And since I've been attending Catholic churches for over 50 years now, I really like what effect it has on so many people, even if all too many in the clergy don't behave morally themselves at times. But this happens in all organizations as you well know, including other denominations and religions-- it sorta goes with the territory.
Anyhow, enjoy the journey.
It is God who saves, not the Church. We will be judged on who we have become. That becoming, for Catholics, is guided by the sacraments which are symbolic of Jesus' actions, he healed, he forgave sin.
Why would the earthly Jesus ever make the sign of the cross?
The priest does not change the bread and wine. In the institution he prays to
God to send the Holy Spirit to achieve a twofold conversion: changing the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, and conforming all of us to the image of Christ. The Eucharistic prayer is of Christ and his people.
2 maccabees 12:38-46
Thanks. I am not attending RCIA classes. I don’t think I’m there yet.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I have looked at the verses in Maccabees and do not see the word purgatory.
The word purgatory, no. What is there is the concept for praying for the dead.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It also fits into the concept of "sheol" that is found in the Tanakh.
There are also some NT verses also that at least hint in that direction, plus we know the early church did indeed pray for the dead. And why not as the theology was and is that there is no insurmountable barrier between "the communion of saints". [rhetorical]
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Remembering or praying for the dead is great. Thar does not mean they are in purgatory. Besides, a person's final destination ( heaven or hell ) is based on that person's actions - not how many people pray for him. Does a person with a hundread friends who pray for him have a better chance of getting to heaven than someone who only has ten people who pray for him?
Axe Elf
Prophet
Like he said, not Biblical. The books of Maccabees are apocryphal for a reason. But even if we DID accept them on the same authority as the Bible, the passage you cited only indicates that a living person made a sin offering for people who had been killed in battle. It says nothing about whether or not this did any good for the people who had died, or where the dead might be waiting while the final offering totals could be tabulated--and even THEN the action was making a sin offering, not offering prayers for the dead. Do you make a lot of sin offerings for yourself these days?