Rise of the dead

[Ponder This]

How compatible is the idea of literally return of dead people back to life, with science and philosophy?

Consider these scenarios:

1. If one has been eaten by a shark, then in turn, part of the flash had turned to energy, partly became the flash of the shark, and partly waste. Later that shark, dies, and its body was eaten by other fish.
A. Then on the Judgement Day, where and which location the physical body is generated, or the particles come back togther considering there is no grave.
Discuss scientifically and philosophically.

2. A baby who passed away, immediately after birth, or just before birth, and now is kept in an Alcohol container.

3. Albert Einstein, whose brain is kept in Alcohol container. How would His brain, as body part comes back and reassembled with the rest of the Body?

4. The idea of belief in resurrection of a dead in some ways, existed in non- Abrahamic ancient beliefs or myths, such as Osiris who was a resurrected king.
Did Abrahamic religions get their idea of resurrection from the myths, or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.
5. In Zoroasterism, we can see belief in the Judgement Day, and general resurrection. Did Abrahamic religions get their idea about Judgement Day from Zoroasterism or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.

If you accept that material bodies can be dispersed or broken down and reassembled into other things, then it follows that a person is not defined simply by one particular assembly of material.

Thus it cannot be said that the brain of the deceased Einstein is necessary to assemble Einstein.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Lazarus was supposedly resurrected on earth, but your OP seems to speak of "day of judgement" which is a completely different ballgame.

Don't take me wrong, your topic is fantastic and though some might think its all over the place, that's possibly because you cant put all you are thinking into one post.

Just a clarification.

So, the resurrection of dead on the Judgement Day, is different than how Lazarus was resurrected?


""Does man think that WE Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, WE are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." 7:54

How does this verse any different that Lazarus resurrection?

How about the following verse. Is it compatible with Science that says, human appeared through evolution;

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.} ]Quran 38:71-72[

 

[firedragon]

So, the resurrection of dead on the Judgement Day, is different than how Lazarus was resurrected?

Was clarifying your point. But it seems you need to argue about something.

No problem. On judgment day, a soul is resurrected not to die again and that happens to everyone. Lazarus was resurrected by God to die again one day as all humans do unless you have spoken to the Immortal Lazarus who must be walking around on earth today.

""Does man think that WE Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, WE are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." 7:54

How does this verse any different that Lazarus resurrection?

As above.

How about the following verse. Is it compatible with Science that says, human appeared through evolution;

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.} ]Quran 38:71-72[

Irrelevant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Was clarifying your point. But it seems you need to argue about something.

No need to argue. Just trying to understand different views here.

No problem. On judgment day, a soul is resurrected not to die again and that happens to everyone.

Does soul die, and then resurrected? Or only the physical body dies, and soul remains alive, until it returns to body again?

Lazarus was resurrected by God to die again one day as all humans do unless you have spoken to the Immortal Lazarus who must be walking around on earth today.

I see. But besides if Lazarus died again or not, when you say, resurrection, do you mean, the same body parts are put together or, the same person is created from dust again?

As above.

I see.

Irrelevant.

I see it relevant. Because, if you are saying, that human are again created out of dust, it will be the same process as Adam was created from dust or clay.
So, was Adam literally created from clay? Or the first human(s) came to to existence as science says, through evolution process?

 

[firedragon]

Does soul die, and then resurrected? Or only the physical body dies, and soul remains alive, until it returns to body again?

No! The Islamic conception is that the soul will be resurrected on the "day of resurrection". If I die today, my soul is taken and resurrected on the "day of resurrection". Its called the day of resurrection because it is when souls will be resurrected.

Only the body dies. But nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that the soul will return to the body again. We are not told what kind of body or form it takes place in.

I see. But besides if Lazarus died again or not, when you say, resurrection, do you mean, the same body parts are put together or, the same person is created from dust again?

The Qur'an does not speak of "body parts being put together", or "created from dust again". So I am not going to make conjecture.

I see it relevant. Because, if you are saying, that human are again created out of dust, it will be the same process as Adam was created from dust or clay.

I didn't say anything about Humans being created from dust or about resurrected with a body again created by dust or any thing of the sort.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No! The Islamic conception is that the soul will be resurrected on the "day of resurrection".

Ok.

If I die today, my soul is taken and resurrected on the "day of resurrection".

Do you know any verse that says, the souls will be taken, and then same soul is resurrected on the Day of Resurrection?

Its called the day of resurrection because it is when souls will be resurrected.

I didn't know that. I thought the Muslims believe, the physical body is resurrected. But the soul does not die in the first place to be resurrected again.

Only the body dies. But nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that the soul will return to the body again.

Fair enough.
Then there is Barzakh. Do Muslims believe the souls go and stay in Barzakh, until Day of Resurrection, and then they come back to earth?

We are not told what kind of body or form it takes place in.

Ok

The Qur'an does not speak of "body parts being put together", or "created from dust again". So I am not going to make conjecture.

What about this verse:

""Does man think that WE Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, WE are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." 7:54

It seems to say, the bones are assembled.
Other verses say, they come out of Graves.
So, seems that, the same physical body will be assembled together, since they come out of their own Graves.

I didn't say anything about Humans being created from dust or about resurrected with a body again created by dust or any thing of the sort.

OK. So basically the questions in OP, cannot be answered logically.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you accept that material bodies can be dispersed or broken down and reassembled into other things, then it follows that a person is not defined simply by one particular assembly of material.

Thus it cannot be said that the brain of the deceased Einstein is necessary to assemble Einstein.

The body is made of various atoms, such as Calcium, iron, copper, iodine, and many other elements. To produce exactly same brain as Einsteins brain, the soil of the grave has to have all those elements. Then these elements has to turn to compositions, with exact same amounts of different atom and proportions. Some Graves soils are very dry, so, it does not have enough water to produce meat, bones and blood. So, even if one imagines, God miraculously turns soil into meat and bones, still that soil has to have all the ingredients, water, etc. Someone may have died in a salty desert. The soil is not a type that can a living human be made out of.
So, does the idea of resurrection of the dead, compatible with science?

 

[firedragon]

Do you know any verse that says, the souls will be taken, and then same soul is resurrected on the Day of Resurrection?

I am using the word soul for convenience. But Rooh and Nafs have different meanings. Nafs is the consciousness. Eg. verse 39:42 where it says God takes the soul when someone dies. Read the Quran fully. Many places it speaks of every soul will taste death and will be returned to God.

You should understand resurrection is Kiyama. It means "people and stand" depicting the resurrection. There is only one day of resurrection. Yawmal Kiyama.

I didn't know that. I thought the Muslims believe, the physical body is resurrected. But the soul does not die in the first place to be resurrected again.

No. Muslims dont believe the physical body is resurrected. And the Quran clearly says "every soul will taste death".

""Does man think that WE Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, WE are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." 7:54

It seems to say, the bones are assembled.

It doesnt say bones "Are Assembled". It says "we are able to". It is speaking of the Kulli Shayin Kadheer, which means God is master over all things. Not that on the day of resurrection your bones and your finger tips "are assembled" which is an inference you are making without the text saying anything of the sort. Quran speaks of many things God could do, but does not mean "he did it".

Other verses say, they come out of Graves.
So, seems that, the same physical body will be assembled together, since they come out of their own Graves.

You are referring to Man fee kubur. It does not say "come out of graves". I have no clue why you keep making things up all the time like this. Never in the language of the Qur'an could Baasa mean a physical raising of the physical body. It means raise up. The word Baasa means to send, take. Like a message. Doesn't mean the body. And it doesnt say "they will come out of their graves" which is again an inference you have made without the text saying it.

OK. So basically the questions in OP, cannot be answered logically.

The OP could be answered. But it will not suit your narrative.

No one will be raised as they died with their own flesh, bones and decaying teeth, old, haggard, young babies, foetuses, children and young people. Nowhere does it say so.

When the Quran says "they will rise from their graves and massing towards God", and they all have physical bodies, from foetuses, still borns, children, old people, all kinds of people, how many billions are you expecting? Which grave? How many people were buried on the same spot? It's most ridiculous.

This is a supernatural event. Not a physical event. The Quran speaks of Graves open, but follows up with the Nafs. The soul or consciousness or what ever you would like to call it in English. Does not say "physical body will be walking out of graves".

Cheers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How compatible is the idea of literally return of dead people back to life, with science and philosophy?

Consider these scenarios:

1. If one has been eaten by a shark, then in turn, part of the flash had turned to energy, partly became the flash of the shark, and partly waste. Later that shark, dies, and its body was eaten by other fish.
A. Then on the Judgement Day, where and which location the physical body is generated, or the particles come back togther considering there is no grave.
Discuss scientifically and philosophically.

2. A baby who passed away, immediately after birth, or just before birth, and now is kept in an Alcohol container.

3. Albert Einstein, whose brain is kept in Alcohol container. How would His brain, as body part comes back and reassembled with the rest of the Body?

4. The idea of belief in resurrection of a dead in some ways, existed in non- Abrahamic ancient beliefs or myths, such as Osiris who was a resurrected king.
Did Abrahamic religions get their idea of resurrection from the myths, or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.
5. In Zoroasterism, we can see belief in the Judgement Day, and general resurrection. Did Abrahamic religions get their idea about Judgement Day from Zoroasterism or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.

I'll just give an estimate:

ZERO

Look around and see how many cases you can find of "literally return[ing] of dead people back to life." What else do you need to know?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am using the word soul for convenience. But Rooh and Nafs have different meanings. Nafs is the consciousness. Eg. verse 39:42 where it says God takes the soul when someone dies. Read the Quran fully. Many places it speaks of every soul will taste death and will be returned to God.




You should understand resurrection is Kiyama. It means "people and stand" depicting the resurrection. There is only one day of resurrection. Yawmal Kiyama.

If there is only one Kiyama, and that's when people are judged to enter Hell or Paradise, then how do you explain, when in an example a righteous man had already been told to enter Paradise (if Kiyama had not come yet)?

Quran 36:20-26

"Then from the farthest end of the city a man came, rushing. He advised, “O my people! Follow the messengers. Follow those who ask no reward of you, and are ˹rightly˺ guided. And why should I not worship the One Who has originated me, and to Whom you will be returned. ......˹But they killed him, then˺ he was told ˹by the angels˺, “Enter Paradise!” He said, “If only my people knew."

And when we continue reading the same story, in the next verse says:

"All it took was one ˹mighty˺ blast, and they were extinguished at once." 36:29

So, according to this verse the blast, was blown before too. Isn't this a sign of Kiyama? Isn't the blast supposed to be blown on the resurrection Day?

No. Muslims dont believe the physical body is resurrected. And the Quran clearly says "every soul will taste death".





It doesnt say bones "Are Assembled". It says "we are able to". It is speaking of the Kulli Shayin Kadheer, which means God is master over all things. Not that on the day of resurrection your bones and your finger tips "are assembled" which is an inference you are making without the text saying anything of the sort. Quran speaks of many things God could do, but does not mean "he did it".



You are referring to Man fee kubur. It does not say "come out of graves". I have no clue why you keep making things up all the time like this. Never in the language of the Qur'an could Baasa mean a physical raising of the physical body. It means raise up. The word Baasa means to send, take. Like a message. Doesn't mean the body. And it doesnt say "they will come out of their graves" which is again an inference you have made without the text saying it.



The OP could be answered. But it will not suit your narrative.

No one will be raised as they died with their own flesh, bones and decaying teeth, old, haggard, young babies, foetuses, children and young people. Nowhere does it say so.

When the Quran says "they will rise from their graves and massing towards God", and they all have physical bodies, from foetuses, still borns, children, old people, all kinds of people, how many billions are you expecting? Which grave? How many people were buried on the same spot? It's most ridiculous.

This is a supernatural event. Not a physical event. The Quran speaks of Graves open, but follows up with the Nafs. The soul or consciousness or what ever you would like to call it in English. Does not say "physical body will be walking out of graves".

Cheers.

So, basically you are saying, on the resurrection Day, there not be any physical resurrection of body.... it is a supernatural event, no body physically will come out of their graves.


The examples the Quran gives, seems to suggest quite a physical resurrection. For example when Abraham asked God, show him how He revives the dead, he killed some birds, then God made the birds alive again, by calling them. Seems quite a physical resurrection to me.

In another example, it says:


"Or [consider such an example] as the one who passed by a township which had fallen into ruin. He said, "How will Allāh bring this to life after its death?" So Allāh caused him to die for a hundred years; then He revived him. He said, "How long have you remained?" He [the man] said, "I have remained a day or part of a day." He said, "Rather, you have remained one hundred years. Look at your food and your drink; it has not changed with time. And look at your donkey; and We will make you a sign for the people. And look at the bones [of this donkey] - how We raise them and then We cover them with flesh." And when it became clear to him, he said, "I know that Allāh is over all things competent."

Seems, Quran is giving examples of physical reviving of dead, so, people know how Allah does it.

 

[firedragon]

If there is only one Kiyama, and that's when people are judged to enter Hell or Paradise, then how do you explain, when in an example a righteous man had already been told to enter Paradise (if Kiyama had not come yet)?

Quran 36:20-26

"Then from the farthest end of the city a man came, rushing. He advised, “O my people! Follow the messengers. Follow those who ask no reward of you, and are ˹rightly˺ guided. And why should I not worship the One Who has originated me, and to Whom you will be returned. ......˹But they killed him, then˺ he was told ˹by the angels˺, “Enter Paradise!” He said, “If only my people knew."

And when we continue reading the same story, in the next verse says:

"All it took was one ˹mighty˺ blast, and they were extinguished at once." 36:29

So, according to this verse the blast, was blown before too. Isn't this a sign of Kiyama? Isn't the blast supposed to be blown on the resurrection Day?

It does not say "enter today", immediately or anything of the sort. And this is not a directive, it is the man saying "it was said enter paradise". That itself is in the past, a narration. Does not say "You will die today and go to paradise today".

So, basically you are saying, on the resurrection Day, there not be any physical resurrection of body

Didnt say that. Read the posts several times.

The examples the Quran gives, seems to suggest quite a physical resurrection. For example when Abraham asked God, show him how He revives the dead, he killed some birds, then God made the birds alive again, by calling them. Seems quite a physical resurrection to me.

Err. That is again, birds coming alive in this world, will die again. If it seems like a physical resurrection in the hereafter, you are making that up to suit your personal need.

"Or [consider such an example] as the one who passed by a township which had fallen into ruin. He said, "How will Allāh bring this to life after its death?" So Allāh caused him to die for a hundred years; then He revived him. He said, "How long have you remained?" He [the man] said, "I have remained a day or part of a day." He said, "Rather, you have remained one hundred years. Look at your food and your drink; it has not changed with time. And look at your donkey; and We will make you a sign for the people. And look at the bones [of this donkey] - how We raise them and then We cover them with flesh." And when it became clear to him, he said, "I know that Allāh is over all things competent."

Seems, Quran is giving examples of physical reviving of dead, so, people know how Allah does it.

This is God showing his power. And this verse debunks your previous argument where it says "a 100 years will fee like one day" after you die. Again, this verse is speaking of Gods ability. I gave you the exact phrase because I have read the Qur'an. Ala Kulli Shayin Kadheer. God is master over all things. You are completely misrepresenting it.

 

[PruePhillip]

How compatible is the idea of literally return of dead people back to life, with science and philosophy?

Consider these scenarios:

1. If one has been eaten by a shark, then in turn, part of the flash had turned to energy, partly became the flash of the shark, and partly waste. Later that shark, dies, and its body was eaten by other fish.
A. Then on the Judgement Day, where and which location the physical body is generated, or the particles come back togther considering there is no grave.
Discuss scientifically and philosophically.

2. A baby who passed away, immediately after birth, or just before birth, and now is kept in an Alcohol container.

3. Albert Einstein, whose brain is kept in Alcohol container. How would His brain, as body part comes back and reassembled with the rest of the Body?

4. The idea of belief in resurrection of a dead in some ways, existed in non- Abrahamic ancient beliefs or myths, such as Osiris who was a resurrected king.
Did Abrahamic religions get their idea of resurrection from the myths, or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.
5. In Zoroasterism, we can see belief in the Judgement Day, and general resurrection. Did Abrahamic religions get their idea about Judgement Day from Zoroasterism or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.

The rising of the dead, as expressed in the bible, has nothing to do with science. By definition it is outside of science, just as the origin
of the Big Bang is outside of science.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I understand your point. But if we are talking about human having a soul, which is non-materialistic, then we have no way to prove or disprove it based on science, because if a supernatural soul exist, it cannot be known through natural science.

Our bodies are physical. If a "non-materialistic" thing interacts with a physical thing (e.g. the human body or brain), then that interaction should be detectable.

... and if it doesn't interact with your body or brain, how is it "your" soul?

In philosophy also, there is no way to show the idea of soul is illogicall.

Is this your way of saying that the idea of a soul is unfalsifiable?

However if we are talking about a physical resurrection, then now, it must be in accordance with science, because it is "physical" then natural science must agree with it.

I think that the idea of a non-physical afterlife has its own philosophical problems.

For instance, say someone has a brain injury as a teenager that drastically changes their personality, then they live a long life before dying. Which version of "them" persists as the soul that survives after death?

- their pre-injury self? How can erasing the person who lived and experienced most of the person's life properly be called "them"?

- their post-injury self? How could a physical injury alter a non-physical soul?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How compatible is the idea of literally return of dead people back to life, with science and philosophy?

Consider these scenarios:

1. If one has been eaten by a shark, then in turn, part of the flash had turned to energy, partly became the flash of the shark, and partly waste. Later that shark, dies, and its body was eaten by other fish.
A. Then on the Judgement Day, where and which location the physical body is generated, or the particles come back togther considering there is no grave.
Discuss scientifically and philosophically.

All the atoms of our body are recycled and indeed become part of other things that come after us.
So if atoms of our body are also used in bodies of wolves etc, and even other humans, in their bodies that come after me, then the very idea of "rebuilding our bodies" using those exact atoms, is nonsensical. Since then you couldn't recreate all bodies, as they were build from the same finite set of materials.

2. A baby who passed away, immediately after birth, or just before birth, and now is kept in an Alcohol container.

3. Albert Einstein, whose brain is kept in Alcohol container. How would His brain, as body part comes back and reassembled with the rest of the Body?

4. The idea of belief in resurrection of a dead in some ways, existed in non- Abrahamic ancient beliefs or myths, such as Osiris who was a resurrected king.
Did Abrahamic religions get their idea of resurrection from the myths, or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.
5. In Zoroasterism, we can see belief in the Judgement Day, and general resurrection. Did Abrahamic religions get their idea about Judgement Day from Zoroasterism or it was the other way around? Discuss from historical point of view.

I think you have been watching to many movies.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

what if is is simple transferred to a thumb-drive called "your spirit"?

What if Paris could fit in my pocket?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Our bodies are physical. If a "non-materialistic" thing interacts with a physical thing (e.g. the human body or brain), then that interaction should be detectable.

... and if it doesn't interact with your body or brain, how is it "your" soul?

We are told the connection of soul with body, is like the Sun and mirror. The attributes of soul is manifested from our body. Attributes of the Soul are, kindness, forgiveness, truthfulness, generosity, patience... these attributes are non-materialistic, and they come from the soul and are manifested in our life and how we live.

Is this your way of saying that the idea of a soul is unfalsifiable?

Yes, I intended to say, the idea of soul cannot be proved or disproved with science but it can be discussed philosophically.
The idea of physical resurrection is different. If it is about a physical event, it has to be compatible with science.

I think that the idea of a non-physical afterlife has its own philosophical problems.

For instance, say someone has a brain injury as a teenager that drastically changes their personality, then they live a long life before dying. Which version of "them" persists as the soul that survives after death?

- their pre-injury self? How can erasing the person who lived and experienced most of the person's life properly be called "them"?

- their post-injury self? H1ow could a physical injury alter a non-physical soul?

The connection of the soul and body or mind, is like how Sun's image is manifested in a mirror. So, if the mirror is broken or has problem, it won't show the image of the Sun properly or clearly, but the Sun is unchanged. So, if a person has a brain injury, this is like the broken mirror. The soul (like the Sun) is still the same Sun.
The Soul, is not what keeps the body physically alive as generally understood. But it gives human attributes to the body. Once the body dies, the soul remains.

 

[viole]

Only the body dies. But nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that the soul will return to the body again. We are not told what kind of body or form it takes place in.

If I were God, I would put the soul of the Taliban boss into the body of Kiley Minogue, or equivalent.

ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We are told the connection of soul with body, is like the Sun and mirror. The attributes of soul is manifested from our body. Attributes of the Soul are, kindness, forgiveness, truthfulness, generosity, patience... these attributes are non-materialistic, and they come from the soul and are manifested in our life and how we live.

I have no idea what you mean when you say that kindness and generosity are "non-materialistic." What are these things if they don't manifest as actions in the real world?

Yes, I intended to say, the idea of soul cannot be proved or disproved with science but it can be discussed philosophically.

So it would be fair to describe it as "not necessarily made up nonsense, but indistinguishable from made up nonsense"?

The idea of physical resurrection is different. If it is about a physical event, it has to be compatible with science.

But that's what I was getting at: even if the soul is "non-material," if it had any effect on the physical, then you would have physical events that need explaining.

The connection of the soul and body or mind, is like how Sun's image is manifested in a mirror. So, if the mirror is broken or has problem, it won't show the image of the Sun properly or clearly, but the Sun is unchanged. So, if a person has a brain injury, this is like the broken mirror. The soul (like the Sun) is still the same Sun.
The Soul, is not what keeps the body physically alive as generally understood. But it gives human attributes to the body. Once the body dies, the soul remains.

So in that case, you think that a person - the post-injury person's "self" - can live without a soul. How many other people we meet do you think are living without a soul?

And if the physical change of a brain injury doesn't change a soul, what about other physical changes like, say, hormonal changes in puberty? Does your soul reflect some child version of you instead of you as you are?

Humans change. If a soul doesn't change, how is it a human soul?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have no idea what you mean when you say that kindness and generosity are "non-materialistic." What are these things if they don't manifest as actions in the real world?


So it would be fair to describe it as "not necessarily made up nonsense, but indistinguishable from made up nonsense"?


But that's what I was getting at: even if the soul is "non-material," if it had any effect on the physical, then you would have physical events that need explaining.


So in that case, you think that a person - the post-injury person's "self" - can live without a soul. How many other people we meet do you think are living without a soul?

And if the physical change of a brain injury doesn't change a soul, what about other physical changes like, say, hormonal changes in puberty? Does your soul reflect some child version of you instead of you as you are?

Humans change. If a soul doesn't change, how is it a human soul?

You Can take a Stone, a glass of water in your hand and say, this is a stone. This is a glass of water. These are materials.
You cannot take love, patience, forgiveness in your hand and say, look, this is one love, or this is 3.5 patience. These are non-materialistic qualities.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The rising of the dead, as expressed in the bible, has nothing to do with science. By definition it is outside of science, just as the origin
of the Big Bang is outside of science.

If it has nothing to do with science, then I would say, it is not a physical resurrection. It is not like literally, and physically people will be resurrected. Otherwise it would be explainable by science.