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Righteousness exalteth a nation.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Jul 19, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    [Proverbs 14:34] 'Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.'

    If the proverb is true then history should indicate which nations are seen as righteous.

    Which nations do you think have been 'exalted'?

    I am also interested to know whether you think that a nation should ever be classified as 'Christian'; and if so, on what basis.
     
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity "exalteth" us all, nation or individual. Let's focus on what "righteousness" means. And, no, this does not require religion, Christian or otherwise.
     
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  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The proverb does refer to a nation being exalted. Do you have a specific nation in mind when you think of 'love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity'?
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I think India is doing much better than Pakistan in that respect. India adheres by what international law it accepts.
     
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  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that religion, or faith, influences the righteousness of a nation?

    Have nations with a strong religious tradition been more 'righteous' than those that espouse atheism or Communism?
     
  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    l had a friend who liked to point out that anyone can be a hero when they have nothing to lose. If you really want to test a man give him massive success.

    I think the same applies to nations. The greater they are the more difficult it is for them to remain "righteous".
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The US has been a superpower and major player in world affairs since the middle of the Twentieth Century. How much of this was to do with 'righteousness', do you think?
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The reason l believe that it's difficult to describe a nation as 'Christian' is because grace is not easily applied to national governance. It would be difficult to set up a legal system that forgave every repentant sinner!

    On this basis, righteousness amongst nations must be judged by the quality of the laws and the adherance to the laws (evident in levels of criminality).
     
  9. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if that verse really means that any nation which is exalted in a worldly sense is therefore righteous. When studying history some nations were really exalted according to worldly standards but were far from righteous. Like the Roman empire or the Assyrian empire.

    However you could argue in the case of the Romans that in some ways they were righteous and this exalted them which led to corruption of their morals and the fall of their empire. The Roman republic was far from truly righteous but they did have some traits which made them strong in the early days such as being known for honoring their word and discipline, tenacity etc.

    Countries should retain the morals they have already and gain new ones. That's the best way to survive.

    However adversity/trouble makes strong people which create prosperity and prosperity makes spoiled brats that proceed to destroy the prosperity the previous generations made.

    In Biblical terms you always see how one generation of Israelites faced some adversity and trusted God and so they did well and then another generation would grow up that "didn't remember" all the good things God did for their parents. So they would corrupt themselves and serve other gods which would lead to disaster for the whole country and the cycle would repeat itself.
     
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's when people over all, command to good and forbid evil. If you don't forbid evil, but avoid yourself, you are a selfish prick or a wussy, and it won't be forgiven from my understanding (not forbidding evil to those who do it). And if you command to good and forbid evil, but don't act on it, you are a hypocrite and it won't be forgiven either since your words will have opposite effect and you are mocking the truthfulness of your words in this case.
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I think the people of Mohammad (s) almost reached this stage were it not for them screwing up after the Prophet (s) left and letting his daughter be oppressed and Ali (a) right usurped. So close.
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 14:34 is a great scripture. But, it may be difficult to say which country is righteous, because many countries change. I think for example that USA as founded on righteous ideas and it as long time quite righteous, all though I think it has also done things that are not good.

    Perhaps it is so that no nation/country is righteous in the end, there seems to be always corrupted leaders that cause lot of bad things. That is why I think all earthly governments are really only bad and should not exist and people should be free and independent and make all choices in their own life without earthly governments that are usually only interested about their own power and money and don't really care if citizens die and suffer.

    But maybe all existing countries have still chance to be righteous. And now that for example Cuba is seeking righteousness, I hope that USA remembers Gal. 6:7 and doesn’t intervene.

    …whatever a man sows, that will he also reap.
    Gal. 6:7

    All though it may be already too late. USA has sown lot of bombs, violence and dissension, so it would not be a miracle, if it also continues to reap it.
     
  13. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Righteousness should be judged by strict adherence to the law? What's the point of Grace then?

    No, to me the righteousness of a nation should be measured by their compassion, for their own people, and for those of other nations. How do they love? That's the true measure of any people's righteousness.
     
    #13 Windwalker, Jul 19, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Isn't grace a matter for the individual, and law for society as a whole?

    Individuals should, through grace, have an influence on the laws of the land.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Is it not true that Israel was blessed when they kept the Law, and cursed when they did not? Was the land not fruitful when the law was followed? I say this thinking that the same may apply to any nation that attempts to establish, and live by, just laws.

    I don't see the law as determining individual salvation, which l believe is conditional on faith in Christ.
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Was this a time before Shariah law applied to society?
     
  17. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    The classic statement from the Shi'a perspective.

    A nation is not one entity especially the US. There are people here who are very compassionate and other who are the opposite.

    The US especially has the highest ideals and has not come close, so far, to achieving them.
     
  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Shariah law was applied by the Prophet (s).
     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Probably the primary example was Israel in the OT accounts that when the nation honored God by obeying His righteousness commandments they were protected and exalted. Yet, as they fell into idolatry and sin they were vulnerable to their enemies and/or captivity.
    While I do not consider the U.S. to have ever been a “Christian” nation it originally had a lot of Christian influence and biblical principles played a prominent part in the lives of the majority of people. At one time the U.S. was truly the nation that was sending out missionaries and spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ around the world more than any other. I think this country was an exalted and powerful nation for these reasons, but that’s not the case any longer.
     
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  20. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Originally you said, "righteousness amongst nations must be judged by the quality of the laws and the adherence to the laws". Should it be? I would say righteous is a matter of morality, not a matter of laws. How does a nation as a whole act or behave on the world stage?

    Yes, it is individuals who have an influence of the laws, but of far more importance is they should have an influence on the societies ethic in how it makes laws and enacts them. Is it tempered by compassion, or driven by fear and force and idealism and populist fears of the moment? "By their fruits you shall know them," said Jesus. Not by the strictness of their laws and punitive justice systems. That's kind contrary to the morality Jesus taught.

    So yes, 'be the salt of the earth", but be careful that's not confused with political idealism. If it's not guided by compassion, it's not Grace.
     
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