RIght vs Left

[rrobs]

WARNING: The following post contains Bible quotes and scriptural concepts. If you are offended by such content, I advise you read no further. In any case, I will not answer any comments that are obviously from someone who does not hold the Bible in the highest regard.

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It’s not hard to find liberal websites that claim conservatives are stupid. It’s equally easy to find conservatives who say the same about liberals. Each side is convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the other side doesn’t have a clue as to how society ought to be run. Neither side is prone to consider anything the other side says is anything other than dumber than dumb. It’s caused a deep divide in American society. So which side is really correct? I say neither side is doing anything to help.

There is an old saying that goes, “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” I think that is what both sides are actually trying to do. Neither side considers that perhaps the answer lays outside the realm of politics altogether. The fundamental problem is not right vs. left. There is nothing either side can do to make the silk purse because a sow’s ear is a sow’s ear and it can never become a silk purse.

The world is a sow’s ear, and as such it’ll never be a nice silk purse. It’s a question of the nature of the world, which, thanks to Adam and Eve simply doesn’t have the raw materials to be anything other than a sow’s ear. It certainly can’t become a silk purse regardless of who is in charge, right, left, middle, up, down, or anything between.

1 John 5:19, (ERV)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.​

The whole world, not just parts of it, but the whole world is set solidly on a foundation of the devil. Unless the wicked one (the devil) wants to make the world a nice place to live, it’ll never be what God intended when He created it in the beginning. Of course the devil has no intention of making it a nice place. His whole purpose is to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10), so there is no hope it’ll be anything other than a wasteland.

While many think God is in charge in today’s world, the scriptures say it is actualy the devil’s kingdom.

2Cor 4:4,

in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.​

Eph 2:2,

wherein aforetime ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;​

He offered this power to Jesus.

Luke 4:5-6,

5 And he led him up, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, To thee will I give all this authority, and the glory of them: for (power) it hath been delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.​

The devil got that power when Adam sinned and transferred his God given dominion (Gen 1:26) to the devil. That is how he became God of this world.

All the verses in the Old Testament that say God is in charge will come to pass when He established the new heavens and earth. They are prophetic in nature and not meant to describe the current state of affairs. Until the return the world belongs to the devil.

Rom 8:22,

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.​

Does that sound like God is in charge? Is that how a loving and light filled God runs things? It’s blasphemy to even suggest such a thing! God does not run the world that way. When Christ re-appears He’ll chuck the whole damn mess and create a new one wherein dwells righteousness.

2Pet 3:13,

But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

That is in the future. It’ll come as sure as the sun rises. Actually, more sure! Someday the sun won’t rise, but God’s word will still be God’s word.

The only reason the devil can’t carry out his diabolical will to the fullness is because of people who believe and walk according to the scriptures. Bible believing Christians are the lights of this world (Phil 2:5). No amount of darkness can dispell light.

2Thess 2:7,

For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.​

Liberal or conservative, neither can do anything to make the world a better place, unless you like a place that is in travail and always groaning. It’s certainly not my cup of tea! The only thing that will really help is preaching the Bible. Speak it to everyone you meet. When you see someone who is sick, tell them God has healed them (1 Peter 2:24 [notice past tense, “hath healed”]). When someone can’t make a rent or car payment, tell them God supplies all their needs (Phil 4:19). Any problem the devil causes can be solved with God’s word. People just need to know that. If Christians don’t tell them, who will? Not the god of this world, the devil. That’s for sure! Just love people with God’s word.

Forget Trump or Clinton. They are powerless to change the nature of the devil’s kingdom unless they speak the truth of God’s word, something which neither appears interested in doing. The solution is God, not politics.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good grief!

 

[sojourner]

You say that you don’t reply to anyone who does not hold the Bible in the highest regard, yet, by lifting up only one possible interpretation (and a theologically untenable one at that, based on the texts, themselves), you are not holding the Bible in the highest regard by ignoring other, more reasonable interpretations.

That, in itself, seems odd from an argumentative standpoint.

You also make clear that, even though the world is peopled by those of differing religious persuasions, you are unwilling to consider a remedy that seeks to create any kind of consensus, which seems almost fascist in its approach.

I agree with Jayhawker here. “Good grief!” Please leave global theology to the professionals.

 

[Woberts]

The solution is God, not politics.

People have tried theocracies before. Generally, they suck.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

People have tried theocracies before. Generally, they suck.

Correction: Always, they suck.

 

[Skwim]

You say that you don’t reply to anyone who does not hold the Bible in the highest regard, yet, by lifting up only one possible interpretation (and a theologically untenable one at that, based on the texts, themselves), you are not holding the Bible in the highest regard by ignoring other, more reasonable interpretations.

That, in itself, seems odd from an argumentative standpoint.

You also make clear that, even though the world is peopled by those of differing religious persuasions, you are unwilling to consider a remedy that seeks to create any kind of consensus, which seems almost fascist in its approach.

I agree with Jayhawker here. “Good grief!” Please leave global theology to the professionals.

And I believe he put that "warning" up front because he knows he's incapable of defending his position. Kind of a cowardly hit and run. But whatever.

.

 

[Sir Doom]

WARNING: The following post contains Bible quotes and scriptural concepts. If you are offended by such content, I advise you read no further. In any case, I will not answer any comments that are obviously from someone who does not hold the Bible in the highest regard.

I just wanted to be sure I qualify to receive replies before I waste my time reading such a long post.

I happen to have a 24 foot extension ladder, am I to place the Bible at the bottom of the ladder and regard it from the top? Or should I place it at the top of the ladder and regard it from the bottom? Or should I climb the ladder and then hold the Bible as high as I can and then regard it from there?

I'm leaning towards option C. Please let me know so that I can regard your post with equal seriousness.

 

[rrobs]

People have tried theocracies before. Generally, they suck.

You missed the point. I wasn't saying right is better than left, democracy is better than theocracy, or communism is better than capitalism. Since we are in the devil's kingdom none of that makes any difference. If it is true that the devil is in charge, do you think it would matter to him if we got rid of all the guns in the world or if every man, woman, and child owned 20 AR15s? He'd work his evil plans with or without guns.

My point is that a decent life is not dependent on any system man can possibly imagine. The only answer, as I said, was to believe the scriptures and live accordingly. A particular form of government is irrelevant to God.

 

[rrobs]

I just wanted to be sure I qualify to receive replies before I waste my time reading such a long post.

I happen to have a 24 foot extension ladder, am I to place the Bible at the bottom of the ladder and regard it from the top? Or should I place it at the top of the ladder and regard it from the bottom? Or should I climb the ladder and then hold the Bible as high as I can and then regard it from there?

I'm leaning towards option C. Please let me know so that I can regard your post with equal seriousness.

I would unequivocally say C also. Don't bother reading it. I'm glad the warning worked. I don't want to waste your time.

 

[rrobs]

And I believe he put that "warning" up front because he knows he's incapable of defending his position. Kind of a cowardly hit and run. But whatever.

I was just trying to save you time if you are anti-scripture. What's so bad about that? You guys always think the worse. Never consider alternatives. That's pretty much what my post was all about, so you defended it for me.

 

[Skwim]

I was just trying to save you time if you are anti-scripture. What's so bad about that? You guys always think the worse. Never consider alternatives. That's pretty much what my post was all about, so you defended it for me.

If you'll note, most of us are pretty much pro-scripture in the sense that we love to debate it. Debate being the forum you are posting in. If you want to preach to the choir then I suggest you post in a DIR forum.

.

 

[rrobs]

If you'll note, most of us are pretty much pro-scripture in the sense that we love to debate it. Debate being the forum you are posting in. If you want to preach to the choir then I suggest you post in a DIR forum..

I understand what you are saying. You are right, I don't take the scriptures as open for debate, so I suppose, as you said, I posted in the wrong place. If you say the DIR forum is better suited, I'll do that. But I'm not sure what the DIR forum is. Let me know, and I'll move everything there. Thanks for the heads up!

Take care...

 

[Skwim]

I understand what you are saying. You are right, I don't take the scriptures as open for debate, so I suppose, as you said, I posted in the wrong place. If you say the DIR forum is better suited, I'll do that. But I'm not sure what the DIR forum is. Let me know, and I'll move everything there. Thanks for the heads up!

Take care...

"DIR" stands for Discuss Individual Religions, with the emphasis on the discuss rather than debate. Each site is only open to those who have indicated an interest in that particular religion and signed up for it. I believe a person is limited to only opt for two or three such religions. So, in your case you would indicate your desire to post in the Christianity DIR forum and sign up for it. However, as much as DIRs are primarily designed to serve those of the stated religion, non-Christians may have also have signed up to discuss, not debate, issues there.

For further information as how to sign up for a DIR forum ask any of the moderators here.

Have a good day.

.

 

[rrobs]

"DIR" stands for Discuss Individual Religions, with the emphasis on the discuss rather than debate. Each site is only open to those who have indicated an interest in that particular religion and signed up for it. I believe a person is limited to only opt for two or three such religions. So, in your case you would indicate your desire to post in the Christianity DIR forum and sign up for it. However, as much as DIRs are primarily designed to serve those of the stated religion, non-Christians may have also have signed up to discuss, not debate, issues there.

For further information as how to sign up for a DIR forum ask any of the moderators here.

Have a good day..

I will check that out. Thanks for bringing it up. I think that's more like what I'm looking for, and I have a feeling it'll make a few other folks happy as well! I understand the frustration (or whatever) of dealing with someone with a one track mind like myself. The scriptures are certainly not everybody's cup of tea.

 

[rrobs]

"DIR" stands for Discuss Individual Religions, with the emphasis on the discuss rather than debate. Each site is only open to those who have indicated an interest in that particular religion and signed up for it. I believe a person is limited to only opt for two or three such religions. So, in your case you would indicate your desire to post in the Christianity DIR forum and sign up for it. However, as much as DIRs are primarily designed to serve those of the stated religion, non-Christians may have also have signed up to discuss, not debate, issues there.

For further information as how to sign up for a DIR forum ask any of the moderators here.

Have a good day.

.

I got to thinking about the meaning of "debate." It seems to be used pretty loosely by many in these forums.

My post made assertions and backed them up with several scriptures. Most of the scriptures were pretty straight forward in that they really didn't need any "interpretation." They say what they mean using words we all agree on as to what they mean. I think I used a logical flow of thoughts based upon the scriptures I quoted.

The first reply was, "Good grief!" How is that any semblance of debate? The second reply talked about whether the Bible should be considered as being on the top, bottom, or middle of a ladder. Again, is that considered debate? The third reply said something about the fact that theocratic government usually end badly. Like the other so called debate replies, that one also didn't address one single thing I actually said.

I've started many threads here. Seldom does anyone actually answer to what I said. They almost always go off in an entirely new direction.

For example, I started my thread with,

1 John 5:19, (ERV)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.
​

Not one person has offered an alternative as to what that verse says. The best I get is, "the Bible is not true." That's fine, but it can't be considered an alternative to what the verse says. I assume you've read or heard actual debates. If one side answered by simply saying, "that's not true," their debate career would be short lived.

So, my question is, where exactly is my post wrong, and by what authority does my "opponent" speak? Pick any verse I quoted and explain where I am wrong in my comments about that verse. Otherwise it's just someone giving me their opinion. Does any of this make sense?

 

[Skwim]

I got to thinking about the meaning of "debate." It seems to be used pretty loosely by many in these forums.

My post made assertions and backed them up with several scriptures. Most of the scriptures were pretty straight forward in that they really didn't need any "interpretation." They say what they mean using words we all agree on as to what they mean. I think I used a logical flow of thoughts based upon the scriptures I quoted.

The first reply was, "Good grief!" How is that any semblance of debate? The second reply talked about whether the Bible should be considered as being on the top, bottom, or middle of a ladder. Again, is that considered debate? The third reply said something about the fact that theocratic government usually end badly. Like the other so called debate replies, that one also didn't address one single thing I actually said.

I've started many threads here. Seldom does anyone actually answer to what I said. They almost always go off in an entirely new direction.

For example, I started my thread with,

1 John 5:19, (ERV)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.
​

Not one person has offered an alternative as to what that verse says. The best I get is, "the Bible is not true." That's fine, but it can't be considered an alternative to what the verse says. I assume you've read or heard actual debates. If one side answered by simply saying, "that's not true," their debate career would be short lived.

Well, we're all a bit different and with varying interests that can come and go. Sometimes after discussing an issue I have no desire to go into it from another angle. Often the response you get or don't get will be a matter of pure chance. I couldn't tell you how many threads I've started that just laid there with only a response or two. As for what you should expect, forget about any rules of debate you may have learned in school. For another, you can expect just about anything, from praises of agreement, to a run of non sequiturs, to almost outright assaults on what you say. But you can jump in and jump out of a debate and discussion at will without introduction or excusing yourself. In fact, many people will often stop responding, particularly if you present a "winning" point, or if you continue to make goofy or "stupid" statements. Some people come to an issue with an agenda, or a chip on their shoulder, or intending to tie up the debate in irrelevant minutia, but most people here are pretty decent folk and truly want an honest debate or discussion. Some are open to new ideas or different views, but most often only to a certain degree. Most of us are just common folk; however, a number of members are well read in certain subjects, or have specialized knowledge, particularly in the sciences, which are well worth listening to.

So, my question is, where exactly is my post wrong, and by what authority does my "opponent" speak? Pick any verse I quoted and explain where I am wrong in my comments about that verse. Otherwise it's just someone giving me their opinion. Does any of this make sense?

I don't know where your post may be wrong or not, principally because it was too long and messy to read---I did skim over it. If you want to start a good discussion or debate keep you opening statement/question relatively short---save your argument for your replies. Oh yes, often opinions are all you will get.

.

 

[siti]

where exactly is my post wrong

You are taking all the scriptures you quoted too literally - there is no Satan - no God either - at least not the kind of God that you are promoting as the only solution for the "sow's ear" condition that you suggest is the "world" today.

Go back to your Bible and read 1 Kings 10:14-29 and then compare that first to Deuteronomy 17:14-20 and then (carefully) to Revelation 13:18 (666) and Revelation 18:9-13.

I'm not saying I believe the Bible is God's Word - it is (as far as I can tell) a book of men's (fickle and fallible) wisdom - but the references I have given constitute a warning about putting trust in the three (real) evils in this "sow's ear" world - the "merchants" - not meaning individual humans but an economic system that puts profit ahead of the welfare of people; the "kings of the earth" who put political power ahead of the welfare of people; and the "false prophets" who put religious dogma ahead of the welfare of the people.

You doubt that this is what the Bible is really about?

Why did Jesus tell the rich man "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)?

Why did the early disciples have "all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need" (Acts of the Apostles 2:44-45)?

Why did Jesus say: "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant..." (Matthew 20:25-27)?

Why did Jesus forbid his disciples to be religious teachers: "be not ye called Rabbi" (Matthew 23:8)?

So far, that all seems pretty left of center to me. I reckon one could make a fairly strong case for the Bible (taken with a fairly liberal - oops - pinch of salt, minus the ridiculous and the miraculous and skipping over the bronze age morality - all of which probably doesn't leave very much but I'm sticking with the trajectory anyway) as a socialist manifesto! Oddly, conservative Christians tend not to see it that way for some reason. I wonder if the "god" of this "sow's ear" has "blinded their minds" (2 Corinthians 4:4)

 

[Valjean]

You missed the point. I wasn't saying right is better than left, democracy is better than theocracy, or communism is better than capitalism. Since we are in the devil's kingdom none of that makes any difference. If it is true that the devil is in charge, do you think it would matter to him if we got rid of all the guns in the world or if every man, woman, and child owned 20 AR15s? He'd work his evil plans with or without guns.

My point is that a decent life is not dependent on any system man can possibly imagine. The only answer, as I said, was to believe the scriptures and live accordingly. A particular form of government is irrelevant to God.

But isn't a scriptural life a system in itself?
People have been living their versions of scriptural lives for two thousand years. Their lives have been far from utopian. Either the scriptures are less than clear about a proper lifestyle and values, or people are very resistant to the Hippie lifestyle recommended by Jesus.

I understand what you are saying. You are right, I don't take the scriptures as open for debate, so I suppose, as you said, I posted in the wrong place. If you say the DIR forum is better suited, I'll do that. But I'm not sure what the DIR forum is. Let me know, and I'll move everything there. Thanks for the heads up!

DIRs are for people who like preaching to the choir; who aren't interested in any fresh opinions or insights.

 

[rrobs]

Well, we're all a bit different and with varying interests that can come and go. Sometimes after discussing an issue I have no desire to go into it from another angle. Often the response you get or don't get will be a matter of pure chance. I couldn't tell you how many threads I've started that just laid there with only a response or two. As for what you should expect, forget about any rules of debate you may have learned in school. For another, you can expect just about anything, from praises of agreement, to a run of non sequiturs, to almost outright assaults on what you say. But you can jump in and jump out of a debate and discussion at will without introduction or excusing yourself. In fact, many people will often stop responding, particularly if you present a "winning" point, or if you continue to make goofy or "stupid" statements. Some people come to an issue with an agenda, or a chip on their shoulder, or intending to tie up the debate in irrelevant minutia, but most people here are pretty decent folk and truly want an honest debate or discussion. Some are open to new ideas or different views, but most often only to a certain degree. Most of us are just common folk; however, a number of members are well read in certain subjects, or have specialized knowledge, particularly in the sciences, which are well worth listening to.



I don't know where your post may be wrong or not, principally because it was too long and messy to read---I did skim over it. If you want to start a good discussion or debate keep you opening statement/question relatively short---save your argument for your replies. Oh yes, often opinions are all you will get.

.

Sounds reasonable. Different folks, different strokes is what it amount to.

Just to be clear, I'm not offended, hurt, mad, or anything about what is said. One thing I can guarantee about being an outspoken Christian is one's skin gets pretty thick. The scriptures tell me to be kind to everyone, regardless of their beliefs or what they think/say about mine. That's my goal in any case. I don't judge anyone primarily because however I judge them I judge myself. I doubt if anybody here has ever had a thought or done something I haven't at least come close to saying or doing (with the exception of a felony. Then again, I've just never gotten caught! ).

I went to the DIR as you suggested. Very interesting. Very few posts newer than a year old. Mostly much older than that. Hmmm...perhaps not that many people interested in the Bible. Could that be it? I'll try to get something going there anyway.

Take care...

 

[rrobs]

You are taking all the scriptures you quoted too literally - there is no Satan - no God either - at least not the kind of God that you are promoting as the only solution for the "sow's ear" condition that you suggest is the "world" today.

Unless you have some authority for saying that, it's nothing but opinion, certainly no guarantee for truth.

Go back to your Bible and read 1 Kings 10:14-29 and then compare that first to Deuteronomy 17:14-20 and then (carefully) to Revelation 13:18 (666) and Revelation 18:9-13.

I'm not sure how that is relevant, If anything it shows that people who believe in God are blessed, which is more or less what I said. Unless I'm missing something.

I'm not saying I believe the Bible is God's Word - it is (as far as I can tell) a book of men's (fickle and fallible) wisdom - but the references I have given constitute a warning about putting trust in the three (real) evils in this "sow's ear" world - the "merchants" - not meaning individual humans but an economic system that puts profit ahead of the welfare of people; the "kings of the earth" who put political power ahead of the welfare of people; and the "false prophets" who put religious dogma ahead of the welfare of the people.

Religion and the scriptures are antithetical. The main tool of the devil is religion. Religion is made by people influenced by the devil. The scriptures are inspired by God, they are His thoughts on truth.

You doubt that this is what the Bible is really about?

Yes I do. They are about life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).

Why did Jesus tell the rich man "go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)?

Why did the early disciples have "all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need" (Acts of the Apostles 2:44-45)?

Strictly voluntary. You may want to consider their culture and time being different than ours.

Why did Jesus say: "Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant..." (Matthew 20:25-27)?

Why did Jesus forbid his disciples to be religious teachers: "be not ye called Rabbi" (Matthew 23:8)?

Seems like it would be a better world if people served each other instead of trying to take advantage of them.

So far, that all seems pretty left of center to me. I reckon one could make a fairly strong case for the Bible (taken with a fairly liberal - oops - pinch of salt, minus the ridiculous and the miraculous and skipping over the bronze age morality - all of which probably doesn't leave very much but I'm sticking with the trajectory anyway) as a socialist manifesto! Oddly, conservative Christians tend not to see it that way for some reason. I wonder if the "god" of this "sow's ear" has "blinded their minds" (2 Corinthians 4:4)

You need to study the scriptures more. Probably socialism also. The two are not even close. I suspect most of your knowledge of the scriptures comes from what others say about it, not what it actually says. As I said, the main goal of the devil is to suppress the light of the scriptures and his number one tool in that endeavor is the churches.