Right Or Wrong

[osgart]

Yes there is objective right and wrong. No one has a monopoly on it though from a human perspective. It is quite simply virtues that run contrary to vices. It is all how you define the terms and meanings.

No one wants vices done to them. The human plight and condition is such that people don't want other people to infringe upon their freedoms and private moralities. I don't want that either. What an adult consents to they are responsible for.

If a private morality is self abusive for an adult to live, they are solely responsible for it. I cannot interfere and I won't unless asked by them. If others enjoy abusing themselves, as long as their is no civil infringement on me then so be it.

But there are rules to self and others. Those be virtues vs. vices. I don't want to be apart of the swamp. And it's funny how people cry virtue when it's their own interest, and yet don't regard those things in their lives. Yes people criticize and point fingers all the while they cry morality and see no reason to exercise it for themselves.

Nobody regards virtues in their own lives, but there they are everyday as a necessity of living. People rely on them and the people that live them.

There are selfish, logical reasons for wanting virtues. As far as intellectually discovering what virtues mean I think people live in the dark ages on the topic.
Religion has not helped the case one bit. And I'm not sure what philosophy has done for it either.

I don't think objective morality is entirely clear to most people. Don't know why that is. People want what they want I guess. To me it's like looking into a bright light and not going blind. The natural world doesn't make it easy.

 

[Erebus]

Is there such a thing as right and wrong, aside from man's concept of it?

Yes ... sort of.

Other social animals have acceptable and unacceptable behaviours. Corvids and primates in particular can display fairly complex social interactions, including the capacity to hold grudges and to expect members of their group to abide by certain social norms. Failure to uphold these norms can result in the offender being attacked, shunned or exiled.

Whether or not this can be viewed as morality is more difficult to determine. Human concepts of right and wrong entail a much greater degree of abstract thinking than those of other animals. As such, they don't necessarily translate well into the social structure of crows or chimps.

 

[Rival]

Get off the fence.

I'm confused.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is there such a thing as right and wrong, aside from man's concept of it? What do you think?

As these are evaluation that we humans impose on certain types of contextual behaviour... no, they do not "exist" absent a human brain.

 

[Rival]

@Secret Chief still not understanding.

 

[ChristineM]

Is there such a thing as right and wrong, aside from man's concept of it? What do you think?

I wouldn't limit it just to man or the human race, most animals have some concept of right and wrong, often survival depends on it.

 

[Kenny]

Is there such a thing as right and wrong, aside from man's concept of it? What do you think?

God is right... man is wrong.

 

[Polymath257]

The question of 'right or wrong' is one of how we 'should' act. But that means that there should be a goal (however vague) towards which those actions are directed.

So the question is actually whether there is some objective goal.

Well, one goal that is often used by those of a secular bent is human survival and health/well-being of individuals in society (both mental and physical).

Now, this is clearly dependent on humans (we don't apply it to mosquitoes, for example). But it is a bit more general than simply being 'only a human concept'. And, I think, if we ever find another intelligent species, we can extend the applicability to include other species.

Once we accept a goal, there can well be objective ways to achieve that goal and objective ways to hinder that goal. In this context the actions that promote human survival and individual health/well-being are 'good', while those actions that inhibit human survival and individual health are 'wrong'.

Now, societies that don't promote those goals *tend* to die out. So there is also a 'natural selection' aspect whereby societies that are better at promoting the goal of survival will tend to survive (hmmm...) while those that fail to promote survival and health/well-being tend to die off/get overthrown, etc.

So, in that sense, the goal is also objective. And in that limited sense, I would say there might be an objective concept of 'right and wrong'. Humans are social creatures and that alone will impose certain bounds on actions to promote such social interaction. This is why you see such behavior as 'sharing' and a 'sense of fairness' in other social species.

 

[Polymath257]

God is right... man is wrong.

How do you know it isn't the reverse?

 

[Secret Chief]

@Rival

sorry - "get off the fence" means "stop prevaricating."

...when you said you were confused, I thought you were continuing the joke - "I'm prevaricating because I'm confused."

 

[Secret Chief]

I wouldn't limit it just to man or the human race, most animals have some concept of right and wrong, often survival depends on it.

Animals got ethics?

"Ethics seeks to resolve questions of human morality by defining concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and crime."

Ethics - Wikipedia

I would consider it anthropomorphism to ascribe it to non humans.

 

[Rival]

@Rival

sorry - "get off the fence" means "stop prevaricating."

...when you said you were confused, I thought you were continuing the joke - "I'm prevaricating because I'm confused."

Well I get that, but Salix also said just 'No' and you never quoted him so I still don't get It, lol.

 

[Sunstone]

Well I get that, but Salix also said just 'No' and you never quoted him so I still don't get It, lol.

But are you not forgetting... Who pays any attention to @SalixIncendium? I mean, other than the private construction team he keeps around to realize his 3:15 in the morning fashion 'epiphanies'?

 

[Kenny]

How do you know it isn't the reverse?

Look at the world and what man has done with it.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well I get that, but Salix also said just 'No' and you never quoted him so I still don't get It, lol.

I must have missed Salix' post.

 

[Secret Chief]

But are you not forgetting... Who pays any attention to @SalixIncendium? I mean, other than the private construction team he keeps around to realize his 3:15 in the morning fashion 'epiphanies'?

Actually not just people, but clothes can also be wrong. Salix being a case in point.

 

[Polymath257]

Look at the world and what man has done with it.

From what I can see, humans have made it better (at least for themselves) than what was provided originally.

For example, we are no longer hunter-gatherers.

 

[BSM1]

Mainly I feel that we are all right unless we're wrong...

 

[SalixIncendium]

I must have missed Salix' post.

What post?

 

[osgart]

If I were to solely go by nature I might say might is right, wealth is authority, and skilled labor is a precious commodity. That morality doesn't seem very judicious.
Sounds like a grinder to me.