Richard Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy

[icehorse]

Interesting, off the top of my head it looks like the more educated or diverse a country is the more likely that the Muslims in that country do not want Sharia law.

It's also useful to factor in this geographical info:

Islam by country - Wikipedia

 

[sayak83]

The Quran is very inconsistent. I agree that there are many peaceful passages. But there are also many, many, many violent passages. So given the nature of the book, I'd say it's not very useful to cherry-pick a few verses, that can lead to an overall mischaracterization.

The last time we discussed this, I showed you that all those passages relate exclusively to self defense while being attacked by others. Can you quote a passage in the Quran that is otherwise?

 

[icehorse]

The last time we discussed this, I showed you that all those passages relate exclusively to self defense while being attacked by others. Can you quote a passage in the Quran that is otherwise?

As I've also discussed on other threads, the definition of the word "defense" is confusing when non-Muslims are discussing the book. The "defense" of Islam according to Muslims is not at all like how non-Muslims use the word defense.

That renders many of your quotes ambiguous. The problem with ambiguity is of course that different people will interpret ambiguous passages differently. That's a HUGE problem for a book that claims to be the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god. Such a book should never be ambiguous. If it was ambiguous, who knows, violence might ensue!

 

[sayak83]

As I've also discussed on other threads, the definition of the word "defense" is confusing when non-Muslims are discussing the book. The "defense" of Islam according to Muslims is not at all like how non-Muslims use the word defense.

That renders many of your quotes ambiguous. The problem with ambiguity is of course that different people will interpret ambiguous passages differently. That's a HUGE problem for a book that claims to be the perfect, unalterable, timeless word of god. Such a book should never be ambiguous. If it was ambiguous, who knows, violence might ensue!

Anybody can choose to twist anything. Somehow Buddhist monks are justifying a progrom against Muslims in Mynmar and Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka. In Hinduism, Gita is about convincing Arjuna to fight and kill a billion people in war. In Christianity revelations can be used to justify any sort of violent world event. Same Quran. I am failing to see how Quran specifically pose any graver a threat than any of these other holy or secular books and ideologies.

 

[icehorse]

Anybody can choose to twist anything. Somehow Buddhist monks are justifying a progrom against Muslims in Mynmar and Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka. In Hinduism, Gita is about convincing Arjuna to fight and kill a billion people in war. In Christianity revelations can be used to justify any sort of violent world event. Same Quran. I am failing to see how Quran specifically pose any graver a threat than any of these other holy or secular books and ideologies.

Have you read the Quran?

 

[sayak83]

Have you read the Quran?

Yes.

 

[icehorse]

Yes.

Ok, so we've both read the Quran. IMO, there are at least two reason why the Quran is more problematical than other major scripture:

1 - It seems to be - far and away - the most blatantly tribal. It establishes an "us vs. them" mindset right from the first Surah, and that tribal mindset runs through the entire book. Now, there is "us vs. them" in other scripture, but in the Quran the "us vs. them" reads very much like a war manual. The Quran seems obsessed with the "other". I believe someone did a statistical analysis, and found that - based on word counting - the Quran spends more time worrying about "the others" than it does explaining how to live a good life.

2 - The Quran repeatedly declares itself to be perfect and unalterable. It is far harder for Muslims to openly cherrypick their book than it is for member of other faiths to cherrypick theirs. This absolutism from the Quran leads to conflict.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

And yet those Christian fundamentalists want to use the power of law to force non-Christians to live by their rules, do they not?

Agree. The reason that Christian fundamentalists behave differently than Muslim fundamentalists is because the Christians are mostly found in secular Western democracies which constrain them with humanist principles, especially church-state separation and freedom of and from religion, whereas the Muslims are concentrated in countries whose governments often turn a blind eye to their extremism if not actually facilitate it.

These Christian fundamentalists would all gladly institute their version of sharia law on us all if given the chance.

• "I believe this notion of the separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel's imagination." - Rev. W. A. Criswell (Dallas, 1984)

• "We need to do more than win an election or win the House or win the presidency, my friends: we need to make this beloved country of ours God's country once again." - Pat Buchanan at the Christian Coalition 1995 Road to Victory Conference, as reported in the October 1995 issue of Church and State.

• "There is a value in spiritual violence, and it is time that you considered the role that you are playing or not playing and whether or not it's time for you to become more aggressive in your beliefs" - Matthew Hagee

• "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good . . . our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism" - Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue

• "I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be." - Jerry Falwell

• "There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world." - Pat Robertson

• "Why stoning? There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost...executions are community projects--not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his' duty, but rather with actual participants...That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christian." - Christian Dominionist Gary North bemoaning the influence that humanism has had
  

 

[whirlingmerc]

Watch the man in this interview spew out misogyny and condone violence in an aggressive, condescending, and unapologetic tone. We should absolutely not be "tolerant" of this kind of blatant intolerance, misogyny, and hatred that Islam breeds. I recognize that there are good Muslims in the world who do not behave like this. My reason for singling out Islam in many of my posts is not because I despise all Muslims (I don't despise all Muslims), or want to be a rabble-rouser. I am genuinely concerned about the negative influence that Islam has in the world, and unfortunately, many people (particularly those on the far left) fail to understand just how serious a problem that Islamist ideology is, and how much it threatens the way of life of peaceful, free, western societies.

True faith is not believing 'just because', but a leap toward the light
Richard has his own set of biases.
One thing Richard does have in common with Pope Francis is both broad brush fundamentalism and religious enthusiast fans and negative (unless its being a fan of science or the pope) Isn't that odd

 

[whirlingmerc]

Ok, so we've both read the Quran. IMO, there are at least two reason why the Quran is more problematical than other major scripture:

1 - It seems to be - far and away - the most blatantly tribal. It establishes an "us vs. them" mindset right from the first Surah, and that tribal mindset runs through the entire book. Now, there is "us vs. them" in other scripture, but in the Quran the "us vs. them" reads very much like a war manual. The Quran seems obsessed with the "other". I believe someone did a statistical analysis, and found that - based on word counting - the Quran spends more time worrying about "the others" than it does explaining how to live a good life.

2 - The Quran repeatedly declares itself to be perfect and unalterable. It is far harder for Muslims to openly cherrypick their book than it is for member of other faiths to cherrypick theirs. This absolutism from the Quran leads to conflict.

actually sometimes people make the mistake of comparing the Koran to the Bible, but the comparison is strong of Koran to Jesus. Both claim to be the eternal word of God in heaven come down to earth.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Agree. The reason that Christian fundamentalists behave differently than Muslim fundamentalists is because the Christians are mostly found in secular Western democracies which constrain them with humanist principles, especially church-state separation and freedom of and from religion, whereas the Muslims are concentrated in countries whose governments often turn a blind eye to their extremism if not actually facilitate it.

These Christian fundamentalists would all gladly institute their version of sharia law on us all if given the chance.

• "I believe this notion of the separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel's imagination." - Rev. W. A. Criswell (Dallas, 1984)

• "We need to do more than win an election or win the House or win the presidency, my friends: we need to make this beloved country of ours God's country once again." - Pat Buchanan at the Christian Coalition 1995 Road to Victory Conference, as reported in the October 1995 issue of Church and State.

• "There is a value in spiritual violence, and it is time that you considered the role that you are playing or not playing and whether or not it's time for you to become more aggressive in your beliefs" - Matthew Hagee

• "I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good . . . our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism" - Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue

• "I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be." - Jerry Falwell

• "There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world." - Pat Robertson

• "Why stoning? There are many reasons. First, the implements of execution are available to everyone at virtually no cost...executions are community projects--not with spectators who watch a professional executioner do `his' duty, but rather with actual participants...That modern Christians never consider the possibility of the reintroduction of stoning for capital crimes indicates how thoroughly humanistic concepts of punishment have influenced the thinking of Christian." - Christian Dominionist Gary North bemoaning the influence that humanism has had

All laws are based on values

 

[sealchan]

Watch the man in this interview spew out misogyny and condone violence in an aggressive, condescending, and unapologetic tone. We should absolutely not be "tolerant" of this kind of blatant intolerance, misogyny, and hatred that Islam breeds. I recognize that there are good Muslims in the world who do not behave like this. My reason for singling out Islam in many of my posts is not because I despise all Muslims (I don't despise all Muslims), or want to be a rabble-rouser. I am genuinely concerned about the negative influence that Islam has in the world, and unfortunately, many people (particularly those on the far left) fail to understand just how serious a problem that Islamist ideology is, and how much it threatens the way of life of peaceful, free, western societies.

Sorry, Mr. Dawkins...I don't espouse violence in the name of belief but when powerful European nations come in and assert their way in foreign lands they and their divisions become the target of anger. Poor economic conditions and lack of a sense of personal sovereignty are just as much too blame. It is not the powers and responsibilities of faith that have caused all this but have been co-creators of the response to a much broader experience of the peoples living in the Middle East. Some of the behavior can be laid at their feet, but certainly not all of it. As a white, British man...to come in there and talk about what is wrong with religion (Dawkins reputation and specific wording of questions strongly implied that)...he should have expected such a response for a number of reasons.

 

[sayak83]

Ok, so we've both read the Quran. IMO, there are at least two reason why the Quran is more problematical than other major scripture:

1 - It seems to be - far and away - the most blatantly tribal. It establishes an "us vs. them" mindset right from the first Surah, and that tribal mindset runs through the entire book. Now, there is "us vs. them" in other scripture, but in the Quran the "us vs. them" reads very much like a war manual. The Quran seems obsessed with the "other". I believe someone did a statistical analysis, and found that - based on word counting - the Quran spends more time worrying about "the others" than it does explaining how to live a good life.

2 - The Quran repeatedly declares itself to be perfect and unalterable. It is far harder for Muslims to openly cherrypick their book than it is for member of other faiths to cherrypick theirs. This absolutism from the Quran leads to conflict.

Yes. Quran is not inclusive nor open minded. But that has little relation with violence as Mormons, Amish or ultra orthodox Jewish communities show.

 

[Shad]

As for leftism, the governing party is literally called the Conservative Party.

In an America spectrum the CP still leans left.


For example in Canada the Conservative Party is similar to the Democrats left of center and moderates, not the Republicans. The Liberal party is far left to the point of being leftist.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Sorry, Mr. Dawkins...I don't espouse violence in the name of belief but when powerful European nations come in and assert their way in foreign lands they and their divisions become the target of anger. Poor economic conditions and lack of a sense of personal sovereignty are just as much too blame. It is not the powers and responsibilities of faith that have caused all this but have been co-creators of the response to a much broader experience of the peoples living in the Middle East. Some of the behavior can be laid at their feet, but certainly not all of it. As a white, British man...to come in there and talk about what is wrong with religion (Dawkins reputation and specific wording of questions strongly implied that)...he should have expected such a response for a number of reasons.

The anti-semitic hatred of so many Palestinian Muslims like the guy in the video is the very reason the Jews need a homeland established (the State of Israel). Instead of blaming Islamic terrorism for 9/11, he blamed Israel and the Jews. Dawkins was right in all of his criticisms, and the lunatic he interviewed only reinforced his points.