Richard Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy

[Valjean]

Edit addition: And of course let's not forget that in many parts of the world "Islamic religious freedom" includes the idea that apostasy is a crime, often a capital crime. So the folks you're defending often don't allow their own members any religious freedom.

This always baffled me. If converting from Islam is a capital crime, wouldn't converting to it be a crime as well? After all, it's the same act.
Why don't fundamentalists execute converts?

 

[icehorse]

Which core ideas are you referring to?

1 - The Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god
2 - Muhammad's life is the perfect model of how a person ought to live

 

[icehorse]

There are core ideas in American evangelical Christianity that supports values in opposition of Western secular values.

This seems like a "two wrongs make it right" argument?

People have a right to have homophobic, mysognist, and racists beliefs. Where the line is drawn is when their actions violate the rights of others.

Yes, and countries have a right to allow only those immigrants they want to.

As Monty Python tells us, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Islam is hardly the only religion to have punished heretics.

Another "two wrongs" ?

==

I'm not singling out Islam. I have grave concerns about other religions as well. But "this" thread is about Islam.

 

[Enlil]

This always baffled me. If converting from Islam is a capital crime, wouldn't converting to it be a crime as well? After all, it's the same act.
Why don't fundamentalists execute converts?

Not the same act in the eyes of those who believe their religion is the only Truth and anything else is anathema to God.

 

[Enlil]

1 - The Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god
2 - Muhammad's life is the perfect model of how a person ought to live

I agree that if one holds these beliefs, and holds them very strongly, one is going to tend to hold some values which are contrary to some 'Western' values.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

This seems like a "two wrongs make it right" argument?

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning one religion for specific attributes while not condemning other religions who share the same attributes.

Another "two wrongs" ?

Another case of hypocrisy.

 

[Enlil]

Yes, and countries have a right to allow only those immigrants they want to.

You seem to be assuming that it is only immigrants who are Muslims. What of non-immigrant Muslims?

 

[icehorse]

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning one religion for specific attributes while not condemning other religions who share the same attributes.

Another case of hypocrisy.

I often criticize other religions. I don't think I'm being hypocritical if I don't always criticize them all collectively, every time I have a criticism. Correct?

 

[LuisDantas]

Hard as it is, we must learn to deal with such realities.

 

[icehorse]

You seem to be assuming that it is only immigrants who are Muslims. What of non-immigrant Muslims?

Sorry for the confusion. In general countries allow only the immigrants they want to, Muslim or otherwise. But the context of my post is that we're discussing Islam and more specifically the questions of tolerance and religious freedoms came up. My point was that - as an example - I see no reason why we should let people immigrate whose core values conflict with ours. I believe this is true for most cases of conflicting values, not just Islamic ones.

 

[LuisDantas]

The video is blocked in the UK. Summary?

Dawkins interviews this person

Born and raised in a strict Orthodox Jewish environment in America Yousef Al-Khattab, formerly Joseph Cohen, is a devout Orthodox Jew, he moved to Israel in 1998 in the name of Judaism, where he stayed in Gush Qatif , few years later Yousef discovers Islam

Who claims to believe that atheists have no morals whatsoever because they are atheists.

He also has some nonsense to say about how it is Israel's existence to blame for the 9/11 attacks, and we all should resign ourselves that "there will always be soldiers for Allah", how Islaam will eventually take the whole of Earth, how we should "fix our women".

The guy is lost for good.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not the same act in the eyes of those who believe their religion is the only Truth and anything else is anathema to God.

Apparently.

 

[icehorse]

Could it be that it is possible to speak out against immoral treatment of others while still allowing religious freedom?

So how should we deal with the situation in which a person exercising their religious freedom treats others immorally (based on our value system)? There is a built in conflict here, how would you resolve it?

 

[Kirran]

Wow, the UK is even worse than I realized. I thought only dictatorships censored the Internet. Basically, Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy who says he hates atheists and non-Muslims, wants Islam to take over the world, doesn't believe the State of Israel should exist, believes that women should be oppressed and have no rights etc. Dawkins explains that this is the problem with blind faith, specifically blind faith in Islamist doctrine. Apparently your leftist government in the UK doesn't want you to know the truth about Islam.

Leftist government? Really? Come on Hubert, before spouting off about a country you don't know anything about do some research.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

So how should we deal with the situation in which a person exercising their religious freedom treats others immorally (based on our value system)? There is a built in conflict here, how would you resolve it?

You punish the person for their actions, not their beliefs.

 

[LuisDantas]

You punish the person for their actions, not their beliefs.

And you become wary of their professed beliefs, particularly if they claim to be motivated by that and the evidence supports such a conclusion.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

And you become wary of their professed beliefs, particularly if they claim to be motivated by that and the evidence supports such a conclusion.

We don't go around throwing people in jail because of what they believe.

 

[LuisDantas]

We don't go around throwing people in jail because of what they believe.

Usually not.

One exception is when they voice threats towards other people.

 

[icehorse]

You punish the person for their actions, not their beliefs.

Well remember my question was based on the person ACTING immorally.

 

[exchemist]

Wow, the UK is even worse than I realized. I thought only dictatorships censored the Internet. Basically, Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy who says he hates atheists and non-Muslims, wants Islam to take over the world, doesn't believe the State of Israel should exist, believes that women should be oppressed and have no rights etc. Dawkins explains that this is the problem with blind faith, specifically blind faith in Islamist doctrine. Apparently your leftist government in the UK doesn't want you to know the truth about Islam.

Heh heh. At least our country isn't sleepwalking to a businessman's version of a fascist dictatorship.

But a bit more seriously, what the hell is a professor of biology doing making Mickey Mouse TV programmes about religion?