RF rule 3 and hypocrisy.

[danieldemol]

I'm looking for a constructive way to critique rule 3, and my hands are a little tied in what I can type here, which is ok.

But I wonder, if we can't call out the hypocrisy of RF members won't this encourage hypocrisy amongst RF members?

Do you feel that a hypocritical RF community is a positive community?

Thoughts?

 

[Nakosis]

I make no claims of having moral standards, so I feel safe.

 

[JustGeorge]

Calling someone a hypocrite seldom discourages them from being one, unfortunately.

How would you suggest you call to one's attention that they're being hypocritical in such a way that they will actually digest what you're saying and use it for self betterment?

 

[danieldemol]

Calling someone a hypocrite seldom discourages them from being one, unfortunately.

How would you suggest you call to one's attention that they're being hypocritical in such a way that they will actually digest what you're saying and use it for self betterment?

I think what you are effectively saying is peer pressure doesn't work, but on that I have to disagree.

Sure its not guaranteed to work every time but its better than nothing.

In my opinion.

 

[sun rise]

Rule 3 is about trolling and bullying not offering constructive feedback.

If you're concerned about the wording, you could ask the mods if your words were over that rule 3 line.

But you could simply offer constructive feedback and have it rejected. Asking how to get someone to first accept that your feedback is accurate and applies to them is a big hurdle. Having someone take that feedback and apply it to themselves is another big hurdle.

To me, the odds someone will accept unsolicited feedback is very very low no matter how it's worded.

 

[JustGeorge]

I think what you are effectively saying is peer pressure doesn't work, but on that I have to disagree.

Sure its not guaranteed to work every time but its better than nothing.

In my opinion.

I think peer pressure can work(sometimes, and depending on who you're laying it on), but it depends on how the pressure is applied. Calling poo-poo head and doo-doo face... not typically. Trying to encourage the person to practice empathy...sometimes.

It also depends on whether the person wants to be considered 'one of the crowd'. I think some like feeling 'apart'.

 

[Nakosis]

Maybe the Mods would say otherwise, but just pointing it out once I wouldn't see as harassment.

Some might not even realize their hypocrisy so you might be helping them.

 

[sun rise]

As far as hypocrisy goes, it's pretty universal as this article pointed out. Subscribe to read | Financial Times

I know that I'm not perfect here because I can say one thing and do another from time-to-time. I suspect 99.99% of people are that way. Some are most egregious and deliberately lying but many others are imperfect in the heat of the moment.

 

[danieldemol]

I think peer pressure can work(sometimes, and depending on who you're laying it on), but it depends on how the pressure is applied. Calling poo-poo head and doo-doo face... not typically. Trying to encourage the person to practice empathy...sometimes.

It also depends on whether the person wants to be considered 'one of the crowd'. I think some like feeling 'apart'.

Why do you equate an allegation of hypocrisy, particularly if supported by a resoned argument as equivalent to calling "poo poo head and doo doo face"?

In my opinion

 

[danieldemol]

As far as hypocrisy goes, it's pretty universal as this article pointed out. Subscribe to read | Financial Times

I know that I'm not perfect here because I can say one thing and do another from time-to-time. I suspect 99.99% of people are that way. Some are most egregious and deliberately lying but many others are imperfect in the heat of the moment.

Ok, nobody is perfect, but will it not help us to grow if people point out egregious examples of hypocrisy?

I'm not considering myself to have in mind minor nitpicking of peoples flaws here.

In my opinion.

 

[JustGeorge]

Why do you equate an allegation of hypocrisy, particularly if supported by a resoned argument as equivalent to calling "poo poo head and doo doo face"?

In my opinion

In a reasoned argument, no. My equation wouldn't fit.

I more frequently see temperamental arguments, though, where 'hypocrite' is tossed around as an insult, without the intent to offer constructive criticism.

The word alone is loaded, in my opinion. If one could express their concerns without actually having to use it, all the more likely their message will be heard.

 

[danieldemol]

In a reasoned argument, no. My equation wouldn't fit.

I more frequently see temperamental arguments, though, where 'hypocrite' is tossed around as an insult, without the intent to offer constructive criticism.

The word alone is loaded, in my opinion. If one could express their concerns without actually having to use it, all the more likely their message will be heard.

Are you suggesting that we may point out hypocrisy so long as we don't call one a hypocrite?

It sounds difficult and I suspect it would still constitute a rule3 violation.

In my opinion.

 

[Aštra’el]

I may or may not have encountered a similar moderation issue myself before when pointing out some blatant hypocrisy here on RF. Phrasing is everything, apparently. I can say “How hypocritical it is of those who support antifas and blms to obsess nonstop over 1-6”, but I can not say “What a hypocrite (RF member) is for supporting these groups while obsessing over 1-6”.

This makes sense to me. It helps keep things more civil in heated conversations.

 

[sun rise]

but will it not help us to grow if people point out egregious examples of hypocrisy?

I'd expect a reaction of defensiveness rather than acceptance especially if it was offered as a "you" statement.

If I had a dear friend who was that level of hypocrite, the best way I can think of is an "I" statement such as: You know, we're really great friends so it bothers me when you did X because of what you've said about X.

 

[JustGeorge]

Are you suggesting that we may point out hypocrisy so long as we don't call one a hypocrite?

It sounds difficult and I suspect it would still constitute a rule3 violation.

In my opinion.

I think Astrael(sorry, I can't get the spelling of the name to link it) hit it right on the nose in their post 13.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm looking for a constructive way to critique rule 3, and my hands are a little tied in what I can type here, which is ok.

But I wonder, if we can't call out the hypocrisy of RF members won't this encourage hypocrisy amongst RF members?

Do you feel that a hypocritical RF community is a positive community?

Thoughts?

We may not call people critical labels, describe their moods,
dis their reading comprehension, or otherwise be insulting.
But you can describe a post as inconsistent, & explain why.
If hypocritical, that would address the problem. I recommend
not using the word even to describe a post....it's offensive.

 

[savagewind]

Something weird. Maybe it's against the perfect rules. Who knows?

 

[Quagmire]

I'm looking for a constructive way to critique rule 3, and my hands are a little tied in what I can type here, which is ok.

But I wonder, if we can't call out the hypocrisy of RF members won't this encourage hypocrisy amongst RF members?

Do you feel that a hypocritical RF community is a positive community?

Thoughts?

It depends on how you
go about it, @danieldemol

If you tell someone something like "that seems hypocritical" that would be okay.

On the other hand if you said something like, "You're a hypocrite, but then all [*pretty much any group of people*] are.", that would be a little different.

The problem isn't so much in the claim of hypocrisy as it is in the unfair over-generalization.

Edit: that and the personal attack.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is any discussion ever made better
by accusations of hypocrisy?
And how often have I seen posters skirt
the rules by calling the post something
to indirectly call the poster that thing, eh.

 

[F1fan]

Rule 3 is about trolling and bullying not offering constructive feedback.

If you're concerned about the wording, you could ask the mods if your words were over that rule 3 line.

But you could simply offer constructive feedback and have it rejected. Asking how to get someone to first accept that your feedback is accurate and applies to them is a big hurdle. Having someone take that feedback and apply it to themselves is another big hurdle.

To me, the odds someone will accept unsolicited feedback is very very low no matter how it's worded.

I report every comment that doesn't agree with what I say.