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Featured Revising The Abrahamic Religions

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lionel Refson, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    2 Samuel 6:7

    ..And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God struck him down there because of his error, and he died there beside the ark of God.

    1 Samuel 6:19-20

    And he struck some of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they looked upon the ark of the Lord. He struck seventy men of them, and the people mourned because the Lord had struck the people with a great blow. Then the men of Beth-shemesh said, “Who is able to stand before the Lord, this holy God? And to whom shall he go up away from us?”

    2 Kings 2:23-24

    He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

    Deuteronomy 13:5

    But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

    Romans 6:23 -

    For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Psalms 145:20 -

    The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

    Matthew 25:46 -

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Romans 5:12 -

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Ezekiel 18:4

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Psalm 94:12-13

    Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law; That You may grant him relief from the days of adversity, Until a pit is dug for the wicked.

    Psalm 118:18

    The LORD has disciplined me severely, But He has not given me over to death.

    1 Chronicles 13:9-11

    When they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzza put out his hand to hold the ark, because the oxen nearly upset it. The anger of the LORD burned against Uzza, so He struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark; and he died there before God. Then David became angry because of the LORD'S outburst against Uzza; and he called that place Perez-uzza to this day.

    Romans 1:18

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    Isaiah 13:11

    Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

    2 Peter 2:9

    then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

    Isaiah 26:21

    For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.

    Isaiah 66:16

    For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.


    Colossians 3:6

    For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,

    1 Thessalonians 5:3

    While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

    Luke 12:5

    But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

    Matthew 10:28

    "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 5:29-30

    "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

    Matthew 5:22

    "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

    Isaiah 33:14

    Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?"

    Isaiah 66:15

    For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.

    Nahum 1:6

    Who can stand before His indignation? Who can endure the burning of His anger? His wrath is poured out like fire And the rocks are broken up by Him.

    Malachi 4:1

    For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

    Matthew 13:40-43

    So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Luke 16:22-24

    "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'




    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

    dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    Daniel 12:2

    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Matthew 25:46

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    Revelation 14:11

    And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

    Revelation 2:11

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

    Revelation 21:8

    But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

    Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47

    Who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation."

    Matthew 11:22

    Nevertheless, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

    Isaiah 13:11

    Thus, I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

    Proverbs 11:21

    Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished, But the descendants of the righteous will be delivered.

    Matthew 25:46

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    Isaiah 3:11

    Woe to the wicked! It will go badly with him, For what he deserves will be done to him.

    Ezekiel 3:18

    When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9

    These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    Ezekiel 18:20

    The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    Psalm 34:21

    Evil shall slay the wicked, And those who hate the righteous will be condemned.

    Psalm 58:10

    The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

    Psalm 11:6

    Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.

    2 Peter 2:9

    Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

    Job 34:26

    He strikes them like the wicked In a public place,

    Proverbs 10:16

    The wages of the righteous is life, The income of the wicked, punishment.

    Hosea 4:9

    And it will be, like people, like priest; So I will punish them for their ways And repay them for their deeds.

    Matthew 25:41

    "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

    Psalm 59:5

    You, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to punish all the nations; Do not be gracious to any who are treacherous in iniquity. Selah
     
  2. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    ((I actually agree with all that, but I see a possible solution much more realistic than what you’re proposing, and which has already turned many thousands, possibly even millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims away from all of the harmful attitudes and behavior that you say are tormenting you. Are they tormenting you enough to consider other ideas besides your own, as possible solutions?))
     
  3. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Dogmatism typically put the brakes on Progressive religion.
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    "Featured Revising The Abrahamic Religions": As difficult as raising the dead.
     
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  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Be specific, quote me some Biblical verses that make Christian rabid lions seeking to consume whomever they choose,

    You say they exist, so you must be able to produce them easily, please do so.
     
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  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmmm, people who read the Bible have half formed minds ?

    The most dangerous person in the world is the one who commits atrocities because God is on their side ?

    You mean like Mao, or Stalin, or Kim Jung Un ?
     
  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    No, I'm saying I think people who are certain that they are acting 'for the good of humanity' are functionally equivalent to those who think they are doing 'God's will'.

    A whole load of violence has been done in the name of "Progress" (commies, French revolution, etc.).

    I am particularly sceptical of anyone who thinks it is a good idea to forcefully impose their ideology over billions of others, especially if based on such superficial reasoning.
     
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  8. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    I quoted a few above. They areabit more subtle than you suggest, you know the ones...the ones the crusaders and modern day Christian fundamentalists use .and they are not all rsdicalizi g ones, some just advise intolerance

    Yep those handful plus thousands of Isis members and of course Christian fundamentalists in your country etc...Just throw out them bad words...

    That is right, superficial reasoning is all that is needed to understand what is needed Even a child could get it. Bad words make bad things
    And I am not doing God's bidding, read my signature,.......I am doing what I believe in....and I am forcing nothing.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Its nothing new and goes back through Prohibition. Its actually an offshoot of the Reformation, heavily influenced by Calvinism and later influenced by the discovery of hypnotism which inspired new forms of worship services probably. Also you're leaving out a couple of big problem causers: several wars that decimated the male population multiple times. Those wars cost. There's a cultural gap. Have you noticed how quick the baby boomers are to see wars as solutions to problems? I suspect its because they are the children of dead warriors and the beneficiaries of war, not through any fault of their own.

    That is worse for them than if they had been defeated. It means they sinned.

    Antisemitism is a thermometer that tells you things about the population. Also the way that people treat gypsies is telling. These are indicators of how nice the population is on the whole. If people are nice to strangers, to weird people then its a nice place. Places go through cycles of being not nice.

    Its pretty scary right now. Part of it is war. Part of it is people paying more attention to the Koran, and part of it is the scary news media.

    No that's where you're making assumptions. People have always been like this. Look at Japan. Look at native America (before it was decimated by disease). Mayan civilization. Slavs. Taoists. Confucians. Greeks. Egyptians. Mesopotamians.

    You mean like photoshop them or genetically alter them. That is an ancient idea, and lots of people of your school have been trying. The Theosophists for example directly tried and may still be trying. You just cannot do it. If you could taylor things and start/stop religions then somebody would try.
     
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  10. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Some denominations and some churches/mosques/synagogues, sure, but hardly the majority.

    So therefore, the religions themselves are fine for the most part, and the scriptures aren't inherently problematic. Only select interpretations of said scriptures provide problems.

    And these dynamics also happen with differing ethnicities, political ideologies, national boundaries, socioeconomic classes, etc. Religion is just another theater for the eternal war between humans.

    In the Bible, all the violent things are relegated to the Old Testament/Tanakh, because those were singular periods in history. No mainstream Christian would look at the Old Testament or the Mosaic Law as justification to wage holy war, because we're not a part of Israel and we're not subject to the decrees of the Mosaic Law.

    Also, if we eliminate anything from the scriptures that you find objectionable, how would we call out objectionable acts and people found in the Bible? You're censoring yourself more than you're censoring the Abrahamic religions by making it impossible to call out things that happened in the past.

    So do you believe we should ban political ideologies as well? Should we ban communism and fascism because of the immense harm they have done and continue to do to humanity?

    Speak for yourself. I see you used to be an Orthodox Jew, as you posted. Do you think your venomous hatred towards the Abrahamic religions stems from your own personal gripes with your former faith, rather than on any statistical data?

    Again, you're assuming that every single member of these religions are sleeper-cell terrorists ready to rise up and slaughter everyone around them. The problem isn't necessarily with the Scriptures, but with the people who pick them up and read them. People read their own hatred and agendas into the pages.

    So you think that every single person thinks the same as you? Well, so far you've had people from just about every religion and lack thereof tear your ideas to shreds. That would seem to me to be a very clear message that you're off-base.

    Here's the problem: Societies are constantly changing. The Abrahamic scriptures would be completely rewritten every five years if we were to go along with your proposal, and every single verse would be gone over again. There are seriously people who think, for example, that dog-walking is a white supremacist act, or that putting your hand on somebody's shoulder during a photo constitutes sexual harassment or assault. Who gets to decide among these massively disparate groups in society which verses and passages get to stay and which get the axe and which get added back in because they're fine now?

    The Council of Nicaea didn't decide the canon of Scripture. Feel free to check the primary source documents, canons and letters from the Council, which are all freely available online. The Roman Church didn't firmly establish the canon of Scripture until Trent. The Orthodox have it mostly set, but there's still some variation between the Russian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox and the Ethiopian Orthodox.
     
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  11. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Literally all of them, because they would be taken out in the name of pandering to people who have no spine and can't stand even the mere thought of encountering ideas or statements that make them uncomfortable and which require them to think and grapple with serious issues of ethics, theology and salvation, like you, apparently.
     
  12. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Firstly the Council did away with all the peaceful Gnostic gospels
    Secondly I do not care if no one agrees with me. I bet I could get a classroom of 13 year olds to agree with me, without having to influence them. The point is within the texts are hateful and violence-encouraging messages which should be removed so that minds, weaker than yours, people with no purpose, the young, the innocent etc are not brainwashed into violence and hatred

    I have no axe to grind with Judaism per se, but it took me many years to accept that if I broke a commandment I would NOT be punished and this is the other side of the brainwashing, religious guilt and fear that can ruin lives and turn normal people into depressed paranoid schizophrenics or arrogant holier-than-thou bullies.

    I won't bother to quote you the verses that either light the extremist fire or cause such guilt and fear.I did so above, without the inclusion of many sura.

    "Dog-walking? Come on! The texts speak of "stoning" and "putting to death" and eternal hellfire and God's wrath and so on and so on
    Do you really think that Mr Average could not find these texts
     
  13. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    You are a fool! They are not ideas or statements they are meant to be the words of GOD They rain down fear and guilt and punishment. They tell one to murder the non-believer and punish the sinner and they are all divisive to society. This is what makes it worse than political dogma
    This isn't about theology or some philosophy. people read these words thinking about God they receive messages like
    Do this and you will be rewarded
    Do that and hell awaits
    Read the 100 quotes I posted above. Its OK for you to interpret them, but many many people take them literally which is why so many suffer with problems and some start shooting or bombing. i doubt that your interpretations would come up with other explanations! even with your supreme intellect

    Here are a few words for you


    Sinful, Damned, Unholy, Cursed, Hellbound, Cast Out, Antisemitic, Murdered, Persecuted. Called a Hypocrite, Crucified, Punished, Called Unclean, Not Tolerated, Shunned, Called Perverted, Facing Ignorance, Facing Anger, Iniquity & Inequality, Eternal Damnation, Genocide, Hatred, Wrath, Hate, Fear, Vanity, Pride, Heresy, Guilt, Sinner, Islamophobia, Conflict, Hellbound, Irreligious, Pogrom, Blasphemer, Sinner, Damned, Depressed, Feeling Worthless, Desperate, Self loathing, Coerced, Maniplulated, Brainwashed, Exploited, Low self-esteem, Guilt, Controlled, Suppressed, Oppressed, Terrorised, Radicalized
     
  14. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Even if that was true. What the difference than someone doing the same but only listening to their ego?

    Your complaining about a human problem and trying to blame religion. Without religion the problem would persist. Just under a different name.
     
  15. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    So you think islamic terrorists would do the same thing ie blowing people up, just for their ego?

    I think you might have to rethink that one!!
     
  16. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Did you not see where I said that the Council of Nicaea didn't decide anything concerning the Biblical canon? They didn't include or exclude any books. There is not one canon, decree or letter from Nicaea that does anything to include or exclude books from the Biblical canon. The Gnostic gospels aren't in the Bible because they weren't being used by Christians. They were being used by some sects of Gnosticism, which was a separate family of religions with separate religious hierarchies, some of whom revered the Logos or the Christ as an aeon.

    You can get a class of 13-year-olds to agree with you about a lot of things. That's hardly a measure of how accurate your view of reality is. 13-year-olds don't know much and are very impressionable, so of course you can get them to agree with you.

    Texts don't go around telling people what to think. People tell people what to think, and use or compose texts to support their ideas. You don't see every Muslim in the world going out and killing non-Muslims because they are taught by their imams how to read the Qur'an in a different way.

    And again, this religious guilt is not an inherent part of any of the three Abrahamic religions. It is merely a nasty consequence of how certain individuals or sects within these religions teach their followers.

    And? So what? Just because scriptures write about some people from thousands of years ago who carried out commands to do those things doesn't mean that people today are called to do the same things. Extreme singular events and extreme singular time periods happened. Many religions feature a place of torment for those who are wicked--Hinduism and Buddhism have many hells, and many places in Asia and Africa have folklore about the terrible things that happen to evil people when they die. Do you want to ban all of that, too? Or, rather than sweeping these things under the rug and coddling people whose feelings might be hurt, we can teach people how to deal with their feelings and grapple with serious issues of justice and violence.
     
  17. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Even environmentalists blow things up. It's called eco-terrorism. Antifa goes around smashing windows, burning cars, punching people in the face and beating people with iron rods because people disagree with them. According to court testimonies, Oberlin College cut off their partnership with Gibson's Bakery partially because college administrators were worried that students would take Gibson's cookies and biscuits, throw them on the ground and stomp on them in the cafeterias like a bunch of nursery school children throwing a temper tantrum. People will always find things to be unhinged and violent about, whether it's religion, political ideology, ethnicity or social outrage.
     
  18. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    You are a fool! They are not ideas or statements they are meant to be the words of GOD

    The believed authors of the passages you've cut n pasted in this topic are listed in the bible. Words inspired by God not dictated by God

    In fact the content of your posts is very similar to those who's only religious exposure is atheist books, propaganda
     
  19. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    So are they...

    :eyes:

    :eyes::eyes:

    I didn't say you were, read my posts ;)
     
  20. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Possibly,

    Antifa is non-religious and they have killed people. Radical feminist group Rote Zora - Wikipedia have killed people. The U.S.S.R. an atheist communist govt killed 130 million during it reign.

    Human nature is the problem here. Zealotry/extremism/hate using ideology as a shield to hide behind.
     
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