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Featured Revising The Abrahamic Religions

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lionel Refson, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Don't they? Not the old elohim is plural of eloheh argument?
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Same flawed assumptions in this thread:
    1. Abrahamic religions are all the same!
    False. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not the same. Islam is questionable to be called 'abrahamic', since it is merely an offshoot of the Judeo/Christian faith, with little to no ideological harmony. Muhammad was 600 years after Jesus, and thousands after Abraham. Their ideology and core beliefs are radically different. Islam has nothing to do with Abraham, and is opposed to Jesus.
    2. Religion is the cause of all war, oppression, and evil in the world!
    False. Man's inhumanity to man does not require theism. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and other atheists in the last century prove that. It must be shown, logically that an ideology promotes violence and oppression. Condemning an ideology by the actions of outliers is bigoted and unfair.
    3. 'Something must be done! ..to end hate and evil.. let's kill them all!' :facepalm:
    Fighting evil and oppression with evil and oppression is just more of the same. How is it any different? Proposing more humane ways of genocide?

    The 'problems!' i see illuminated by this thread, are:
    1. revisionist history
    2. religious bigotry
    3. a disneyesque view of humanity
    4. progressive indoctrination
    5. state sponsored propaganda
    6. the 'religion' of Progressivism smearing and demeaning the competition.
     
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  3. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Don't they? Not the old elohim is plural of eloheh argument?

    Nope, every one should know that the term Elohim is a homonym, and denotes God, angels, judges, and the rulers of countries

    In fact the creator God is hardly mentioned in the OT
     
    #23 Darkforbid, Jun 24, 2019
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  4. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    1/ Muslims revere Abraham
    2/ Muslims agree with much of the early Old testament until we get Moses
    3/ Islam is an Abrahamic religion
    4/ I never said kill them all. Can't you read. Why do you think I am picking on Christianity on its own ??
    5/ i never said religion is the only cause of all war etc, but this is a religious forum and I am not here to discuss Stalin etc.
    6/ Judaism is opposed to jesus as well. They are all opposed to each other!
     
  5. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    trust me as an ex-orthodox jew........it means God
     
  6. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    trust me as an ex-orthodox jew........it means God


    So Maimonides the eminent Jewish scholar was wrong just because you say?!
     
  7. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    To a large extent we already have that, at least within Christianity. Leaders of the various denominations dialogue with each other all the time. Catholics and Orthodox, Orthodox and Anglicans, Lutherans and Catholics, Calvinists and Lutherans... You name a denomination, I can name agreements and shared statements of faith that it has with other Christian denominations. Christianity pretty much started the ecumenical movement within Christianity and with other world religions. And for the most part, the Jews never hurt nobody. The poor lads just wanna be left alone to do their own thing for once in 2000 years.

    This isn't a matter of the text inherently teaching people how to act. The Bible, the Qur'an and the Talmud don't each only have one possible interpretation of what constitutes ethical behavior. They have many possible interpretations concerning ethics, which is one of the reasons why there are different denominations in the first place--some denominations like the Jehovah's Witnesses shun and cut all contact with anybody who leaves their church, some denominations like the Reformed or Anabaptists think that drinking and even dancing are sinful, some denominations are pacifist like the Anabaptists, some denominations uphold pacifism as the ideal but will resort to war if need be like the Orthodox...

    Also, what constitutes "intolerance of any kind"? Is simply disagreeing with somebody's opinion "intolerance"? Is disagreeing with somebody's life choices and pointing out sin and immorality "intolerance"? You're operating on extremely vague categories. Jesus called out hypocrites and chased money launderers out of the Temple grounds. Looks like Jesus is pretty intolerant, better get rid of Him. Is this seriously what you're going for? Did you think about the consequences of this proposal for more than two seconds?

    Should we do the same with history teachers? Should we cut out the speeches of any general encouraging their men before a major battle because it encourages violence? Should we portray everybody who ever took part in a battle as bloodthirsty barbarians?

    We already do this. It's called the criminal justice system, and murder charges, and terrorism charges. Did you even think about any of this?

    Sure, Salafi Islam is on the rise, but that's not the sole cause of the violence in the Middle East. Don't forget that it was Western colonial powers who arbitrarily divided up the region and continued to meddle in the internal affairs of these countries, sponsoring political parties and militant movements without thought that later turned out to be brutal dictators and terrorist organizations. The rise in extremist Islam is just a consequence of political instability and turmoil in the region. Albania, Bosnia and the Central Asian nations, for example, don't have nearly the amount of Islamist political violence that we see in the Middle East, despite being overwhelmingly majority Muslim. I remember being in Sarajevo last year, and it was beautiful. It was the first city I'd ever been in where the mosques outnumbered the churches, but the Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Muslims have been coexisting in that country for centuries. Sure, Bosnia was at the boundary between the Ottomans and the Austro-Hungarians, and that brought with it much conflict, but the average people living in Bosnia are able to get along just fine for the most part.

    Yes, and the root is not the religions themselves. I'm sure if you study history and politics, you will find that secular society does even more damage than extremist religious ideologies, because society changes much more quickly than religion and thus can create problems far faster than it can solve them. The growing rise in fundamentalism is a symptom of the political and societal polarization that came from secular society. Just look at the millions and millions of people killed under atheistic Communist regimes in the past century.

    How many people do you think actually teach children to become terrorists or to murder other people in the name of God? Do you think all Christians, Jews and Muslims are mustache-twirling supervillains plotting on creating armies of brainwashed children to take over the world? Because that seems to be what you think based on your proposals to either outright ban the Abrahamic religions altogether, or to strip them of anything you deem objectionable.
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Couldn't happen, edit out the bad bits of religious texts you are left with a book cover and a title followed by a series of numbers, commas and full stops.
     
  9. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    I think one part of deconstructing the Abrahamic religions would be to demonstrate how Christians (ab)used the original teachings of Jesus and made a religion out of something that was never meant to be one.

    Those teachings of Jesus were still very similar and close to the non-Abrahamic paths, so this will make the more educated Christians realize where Christianity lost the way.

    I'm not sure whether the same treatment would be possible for the other two Abrahamic religions and besides, those both have very strong mystic variants that could be promoted over fundamentalism.
     
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  10. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't happen, edit out the bad bits of religious texts you are left with a book cover and a title followed by a series of numbers, commas and full stops.


    And if you edit the rubbish out of atheist propaganda you'll leave a void
     
  11. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I think you are missing the point that you are doing exactly what you are criticising: deciding that you have discovered the truth and that the world needs to reflect your dubious personal preferences based on naive, sweeping generalisations and superficial understanding of human nature, and human culture.

    There is also no functional difference between thinking you are acting for a 'higher power', or thinking you are acting for 'the good of Humanity' as you are doing.

    If I'd been killed during Soviet purges, or tortured during Mao's cultural revolution, I'd probably not be thinking "at least it wasn't the Abrahamics..."
     
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  12. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    ((Can you imagine any way that could actually ever happen? Teaching people to see their scriptures in a different context, where the scriptures are telling them not to do those things, would be even better, and it has already happened with many thousands, maybe even millions of people of all religions.))
     
  13. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    I'd been killed during Soviet purges, or tortured during Mao's cultural revolution, I'd probably not be thinking "at least it wasn't the Abrahamics..."

    Rubbish, every victim asked if they were being killed in the name of atheism, don't you read Dawkins
     
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The form of that quote can be applied to many things such as marxism, deconstructionism, patriotism etc.

    This comment you directed towards Daniel, but I wanted to point out that I and many people here understand what you're saying. There has not been a very liberal approach for the last thousand years though. We had some breathing space due to sicknesses unexpectedly clearing out the American continents which allowed European cultures to expand and experiment with new ideas. The last thousand years have been very conservative, very stop and go with small bubbles of free societies. Overall people have not been free, not having a choice of job or choice of ideas or social stratum. Its only been in the last 50 years that people worldwide have started to believe in human value as something important or even given it a chance.
     
  15. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Yes. Did he have a special path to God, more so than you or I, just because he was famous or a scholar or a famous jewish scholar? He wrote for his times.



    The Abrahamic religions brainwash their followers with gulit and fear. Only the minority will go out and kill, thinking God is on their side. But what then follows is a response from another of these religions. Hatred breeds hatred. In the middle of all this are the moderates who suddenly find themselves under attack from one of the other abrahamic religions. We then have a rise in Islamophobia, anti-semitism, because hate is ignorant and blind. people are hurt, lives are ruined etc etc

    If we get these leaders together and they could prove that verses condoning violence in any form are necessary and actually did come from the mouth of God, I for one would listen. But they cannot prove this so why should we accept them. Their inclusion is far more dangerous than anything secular, because the inclusion of a higher power is involved. Do you know how much more powerful an indoctrination tool this is , especially for young easily-influenced minds

    It does not matter if politics has caused more deaths or atrocities etc. These can be studied and the murderers/political leaders etc held to account. History can vilify them and we can learn and move on, but these religions are meant to represent that which is all-knowing, all-seeing and all-powerful and any kid that believes in God is going to have at the very least a lifetime of guilt and fear, even if the individual manages to control it or get help.
    An Islamic extremist that reads a verse urging him to kill the infidel has an extra weapon in his armour. It is a seed, the seed of certainty that he acts for his beloved God..then people get murdered
    How can society stand idly by and allow these religions to peddle their hatred, interwoven with tales of love and forgiveness, hidden for those with agendas to dig up to show their brainwashed flock.

    .and its not what I deem should be removed or not. Any normal , ordinary person, theist or atheist can easily identify the passages that should be removed.
    The books have been revised many times. Why not once again, but this time with the removal of anything that goes against God's first blessing, applicable to all.ie be fruitful and multiply. OR anything that society would label as inciting violence etc . The parameters are not up to me, but rather they should be the same as a caring cohesive society.



    Yes and the Gnostic gospels for example were left out at Nicae. With regard to Judaism, any Jew should not argue that God was wrong, or got his blessing or covenant wrong in Gen 9.....but they do.and yes that is a challenge!

    So what you are saying is that I think I am a higher power because I am trying to remove all the hateful spew that is contained in the Abrahamic books. . I am the opposite. I am a little man who loves God and humanity and cannot bear the terrible events that keep happening when abrahamic religious crap is used either directly, or twisted further to brainwash someone to kill in the name of God .
     
  16. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    :facepalm:

    Just non stop phony narratives and anti religion smears...

    Your assumptions and beliefs are flawed, based on revisionism and bigotry.
     
  17. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Sure, but we are on the brink of something truly awful. there is a huge rise of Christian fundamentalism in the USA and ISIS have not been defeated, they have just gone underground.
    There is rising anti-semitism in Europe and Islamophobia everywhere and the cause of all this is the existence of these religions in the first place.
    Now you cannot really ban them, of course I know this BUT, you can possibly try and remove from them the content that causes such murder and hatred, if not for our generations then for future ones.
     
  18. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Correlating biblical Christianity with ISIS?

    The propaganda is strong, in this one...
    :facepalm:
     
  19. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    It takes one to know one my Nicaean friend.

    Tell me which of these verses would upset you if they were removed. I haven't bothered to include the Islamic ones....far too many

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 1

    Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    Luke 19:27

    But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.

    2 Chronicles 15:13

    But that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.

    Deuteronomy 17:2-5 ESV

    “If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

    Leviticus 20:13

    If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

    Leviticus 20:27

    “A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

    Deuteronomy 17:12

    The man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.

    Revelation 21:8

    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Deuteronomy 13:13-18

    That certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.

    Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

    1 Samuel 15:2-3

    Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

    Deuteronomy 13:7-12

    Some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you. ...

    Exodus 22:20

    “Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the Lord alone, shall be devoted to destruction.

    Deuteronomy 17:3-5

    And has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

    Mark 16:16

    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.






    .
     
  20. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Jeremiah 50:21-22

    “Go up against the land of Merathaim, and against the inhabitants of Pekod. Kill, and devote them to destruction, declares the Lord, and do all that I have commanded you. The noise of battle is in the land, and great destruction!

    2 Kings 19:35

    And that night the angel of the Lord went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

    Exodus 31:12-15

    And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.

    Acts 5:1-11

    But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. ...

    Ezekiel 35:7-9

    I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation, and I will cut off from it all who come and go. And I will fill its mountains with the slain. On your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall. I will make you a perpetual desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

    Jeremiah 15:1-4 ESV /

    Then the Lord said to me, “Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight and let them go! And when they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord: “‘Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence, and those who are for the sword, to the sword; those who are for famine, to famine, and those who are for captivity, to captivity.’ I will appoint over them four kinds of destroyers, declares the Lord: the sword to kill, the dogs to tear, and the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth to devour and destroy. And I will make them a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth because of what Manasseh the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem.

    1 Kings 20:35-36

    And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his fellow at the command of the Lord, “Strike me, please.” But the man refused to strike him. Then he said to him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, behold, as soon as you have gone from me, a lion shall strike you down.” And as soon as he had departed from him, a lion met him and struck him down.

    1 Kings 14:9-16

    But you have done evil above all who were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods and metal images, provoking me to anger, and have cast me behind your back, therefore behold, I will bring harm upon the house of Jeroboam and will cut off from Jeroboam every male, both bond and free in Israel, and will burn up the house of Jeroboam, as a man burns up dung until it is all gone. Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat, for the Lord has spoken it.”’ Arise therefore, go to your house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die. And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something pleasing to the Lord, the God of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam. ...
     
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