• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"Reverse Christianity"

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
Most Satanists don't exactly want to be "reverse Christians," but instead want to be kinda different from Christians. As a result most Satanists refuse to do things like do "reverse" or mock Christian rituals, or use the Christian Bible to shape their beliefs.

So let me ask this; the inverted cross is actually a Christian symbol called the Cross of Saint Peter. I'm not sure how many Satanist actually use this symbol, but if we are to use Christian symbols in the first place, at what point are we "reverse Christians" and where is the safe zone from that?

What about things condemned by the Churches that are used by syncretic Christians, like some folk saints? Would practicing Satanism with such figures be "reverse Christianity"? Does it not matter as long as our veiws differ from the dogmatic monotheistic holy-light-brotherhood?
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How's a folk saint different from a normal saint? Also does it really matter? Basically "reverse Satanism" means "hollywood satanism" or at least believing in Christianity but siding with the devil.

That's pretty darn easy to avoid. It's the perception people want to avoid. To not use any Christian symbolism is actually pretty hard for a Satanist to do, but it's possible if they take from non-Christian sources (after all you got 2 more religions to pull from as well as stuff like demonaltry).

I seem to vaguely be aware of some tendency in South/Central American countries where Catholicism mixed with native beliefs, where today Satan and Yahweh are seen kind of like the flip sides of things. They are sometimes described as Satanists but really they are just putting much more ancient beliefs into the roles/masks of their own Catholic hybrid. In that sense they are and are not "reverse Christians". Maybe more of just the dark side of their own hybrid system. This seems to mostly be a thing in their magic/witchcraft traditions. I knew someone that was involved in something like this at one point, so this isn't just something I read about.
 

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
How's a folk saint different from a normal saint? Also does it really matter? Basically "reverse Satanism" means "hollywood satanism" or at least believing in Christianity but siding with the devil.

I guess that Hollywood Satanism definition makes sense.

To answer those questions, folk saints in Christianity are not officially part of the Christian faith but still have a large amount of Christian followers. As an example, Santa Muerte is a Mexican folk saint (sometimes a goddess) condemned by the church because of her connection to crime and the LGBT community, and she is identified as "Satanic" when she's actually considered an angel by her followers. I think she's probably one of the more interesting examples of that. And honestly I would laugh to see a Christian of any sort go wide-eyed in fear and flee from a female grim reaper-like figurine, and it's also a little interesting in an odd way to see a Christian devote to an angel/goddess of death.

That's pretty darn easy to avoid. It's the perception people want to avoid. To not use any Christian symbolism is actually pretty hard for a Satanist to do, but it's possible if they take from non-Christian sources (after all you got 2 more religions to pull from as well as stuff like demonaltry).

Most resources for Demonaltry are actually heavily Christianized, especially if you look at the Goetic ones. But I don't really mind that. I mean Satanists kind of took the name of someone who was originally a Jewish angel who accuses for his job. So just identifying as a Satanist has Judeo-Christian connotations, even if you avoid Christian symbolism and reject the popular beliefs.

I seem to vaguely be aware of some tendency in South/Central American countries where Catholicism mixed with native beliefs, where today Satan and Yahweh are seen kind of like the flip sides of things. They are sometimes described as Satanists but really they are just putting much more ancient beliefs into the roles/masks of their own Catholic hybrid. In that sense they are and are not "reverse Christians". Maybe more of just the dark side of their own hybrid system. This seems to mostly be a thing in their magic/witchcraft traditions. I knew someone that was involved in something like this at one point, so this isn't just something I read about.

Syncretism is not too uncommon in that part of the world. Even Voodoo followers have a large Christian community in their ranks. But like I said about Santa Muerte, that's actually condemned by churches even in the area for numerous reasons. They get really upset about some practices, while others they do despite the fact they took those traditions from paganism and polytheistic practices in the first place. I never quite got that. That's probably one reason I could never be a Christian (that and monotheism is really hard to understand).
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most resources for Demonaltry are actually heavily Christianized, especially if you look at the Goetic ones. But I don't really mind that. I mean Satanists kind of took the name of someone who was originally a Jewish angel who accuses for his job. So just identifying as a Satanist has Judeo-Christian connotations, even if you avoid Christian symbolism and reject the popular beliefs.

It seems to me part of this was that it was adapted to survive in a Church-dominated era and you can still see a lot of the classic ancient world Daemon archetypes. Though you are right in that it's historically part of a Chrisitan tradition. Maybe I shouldn't of included it as it's literally the one form of occultism most like "reverse Christianity" except it's really not at least historically. It's more "using the dark for light" kind of deal. I think more modernly the Christian aspects are kind of stripped away, leaving just the demon/daemon aspects. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I've not had too much dealing with it before.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
It seems to me part of this was that it was adapted to survive in a Church-dominated era and you can still see a lot of the classic ancient world Daemon archetypes. Though you are right in that it's historically part of a Chrisitan tradition. Maybe I shouldn't of included it as it's literally the one form of occultism most like "reverse Christianity" except it's really not at least historically. It's more "using the dark for light" kind of deal. I think more modernly the Christian aspects are kind of stripped away, leaving just the demon/daemon aspects. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I've not had too much dealing with it before.
Are we talking historical (pre 20th century) ceremonial magick?
Or modern demonolatry?
I don't know that much about how the grimoire tradition came to be, but from what I heard of it, its practitioners saw themselves as Christians.
Also, from what I know, the traditional rites are rather Christian in that they use names of God to force their will upon the demons evoked, and in general as seeing demons as nothing but tools for the magician's goals - powerful and dangerous tools, but not something one would need to respect.

Modern demonolatry (or any kind of contemporary demon evocation by LHPers) works with the same beings, but treats them completely different.
I have encountered only very few who'd recommend using traditional methods like binding a demon to a symbol like the Seal of Solomon at all. The only one such I do remember is a chaos magician and I don't know his reasons.
Normally, demons are rather considered to be something like polytheistic deities, or at least archetypical aspects of the psyche, and treated with respect if not outright worshiped. Also the surrounding theology is in most cases very different from Christianity.

And that relates to what I think about the whole question of reverse Christianity:
Using symbols or myths from Christianity doesn't make you a reverse Christian (especially since most Christians don't even know many of the myths we are working with), adopting (major parts of) the dogma does. Not like this would lead to something completely awful in all cases. I mean, if the standard myth of Gnostic Satanism were to be taken literally, it would be Reverse Christian, too. Or if you'd believe the Qliphoth to be literally the impure remains of God's previous creation experiments (or similar), you'd be an Reverse Jew.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And that relates to what I think about the whole question of reverse Christianity:
Using symbols or myths from Christianity doesn't make you a reverse Christian (especially since most Christians don't even know many of the myths we are working with), adopting (major parts of) the dogma does. Not like this would lead to something completely awful in all cases. I mean, if the standard myth of Gnostic Satanism were to be taken literally, it would be Reverse Christian, too. Or if you'd believe the Qliphoth to be literally the impure remains of God's previous creation experiments (or similar), you'd be an Reverse Jew.

That's actually a good point I hadn't thought of.

As for your question before that, I guess in my mind I was talking about a mix of both. I'm not very familiar but if they considered themselves very much Christian and were not just pretending then ya I'm a bit wrong in that assessment I guess. I assumed they put those in the rites just to lessen the chance of getting persecuted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Liu

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most Satanists don't exactly want to be "reverse Christians," but instead want to be kinda different from Christians. As a result most Satanists refuse to do things like do "reverse" or mock Christian rituals, or use the Christian Bible to shape their beliefs.

Not really, somewhere around here I posted a "Rite of Blasphemy" a long time ago. The idea was to use the ritual in a sort of cathartic fashion, but also because most Satanists have enough anger toward Abrahamic faiths to use it as a catalyst to accomplish great things. It's not so much being preoccupied with vengeance on them as it is simply cleansing ones soul of distractions... Obviously, this "mockery" of Christianity can be useful in the right context.

So let me ask this; the inverted cross is actually a Christian symbol called the Cross of Saint Peter. I'm not sure how many Satanist actually use this symbol, but if we are to use Christian symbols in the first place, at what point are we "reverse Christians" and where is the safe zone from that?

Whichever way you spin your crosses, you stole them from the Celts and Germanic Pagans that had been using them 50,000+ years beforehand. :D If the Christians can re-appropriate a pagan symbol, we can do so as well. Personally, I never cared for the aesthetics but I think what something means to you is much more important than any additional attributions.

We should never concern ourselves as about being seen as "reverse Christians" or we become slaves to those whom we constantly attempt to appease. If anything is a constant in Satanism it is an unfettered expression of oneself, and the minute you are doing something else you are screwed and walking away from it. If your expression of Satanism leans on Christian theology that is perfectly fine... It doesn't make you any less of a Satanist - you literally worship the Devil after all. :) LaVey started a lot of this crap, and that's all it is - the first principal of Satanism is: No freaking rules. If you're following someone else's you just hopped on the dogma train and rode right off the LHP.

What about things condemned by the Churches that are used by syncretic Christians, like some folk saints? Would practicing Satanism with such figures be "reverse Christianity"? Does it not matter as long as our veiws differ from the dogmatic monotheistic holy-light-brotherhood?

No, because unless you see Satan in a positive light you aren't a Satanist. Syncreticsm is basically what happens when someone who is spiritually out of tune attempts to jumble everything together because they only have an intellectual understanding of a subject rather than a direct one, IMHO. Their idea is basically that all of these things are representative of principles or energies across cultures, but they have no way to tell -- they are just guessing. The cultures that use folk saints are Christian, and identify as such regardless of what others think. They view Jesus > Santa Muerte, etc...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Liu

Liu

Well-Known Member
Whichever way you spin your crosses, you stole them from the Celts and Germanic Pagans that had been using them 50,000+ years beforehand. :D If the Christians can re-appropriate a pagan symbol, we can do so as well. Personally, I never cared for the aesthetics but I think what something means to you is much more important than any additional attributions.
I'm quite certain their were no Celts or Germanics 50.000 years ago. The Germanic language only separated from Indo-European about 3000 years ago, and I don't think I ever encountered a cross symbol in Indo-European culture itself.
I get your point, though, such a simple symbol as a cross can be expected to be found in a variety of cultures with very different meanings.

No, because unless you see Satan in a positive light you aren't a Satanist. Syncreticsm is basically what happens when someone who is spiritually out of tune attempts to jumble everything together because they only have an intellectual understanding of a subject rather than a direct one, IMHO. Their idea is basically that all of these things are representative of principles or energies across cultures, but they have no way to tell -- they are just guessing. The cultures that use folk saints are Christian, and identify as such regardless of what others think. They view Jesus > Santa Muerte, etc...
My impression is rather that the South American syncretisms are the result of a very practical and experience based form of Christianity influenced by the traditional American and African religions.
Also, I got my knowledge on this only from books, but I do remember one syncretism there in which Jesus, Satan and I think Mary were seen as the three aspects of God.
Is that Christianity? Is it not Satanism by your definition?
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
That's actually a good point I hadn't thought of.

As for your question before that, I guess in my mind I was talking about a mix of both. I'm not very familiar but if they considered themselves very much Christian and were not just pretending then ya I'm a bit wrong in that assessment I guess. I assumed they put those in the rites just to lessen the chance of getting persecuted.
I actually don't know, but I'd reckon these texts were seen as blasphemous in any case, and these additions would hardly make a difference. So I'd rather expect the authors to actually use their own worldview in the texts.
Nevertheless, I know that at least in the 12th century or so there was at least one actual Christian prayerbook that contained what we would now consider rituals next to normal prayers. Nothing with demons afaik, though, (except for Leviathan being mentioned next to several other biblical characters in an incantation), but prayers to God, Mary, saints etc. for e.g. a good marriage with specific instructions when and in which order to pray what and which kind of actions (like kneeling down) to do in between. Fascinating, but a new topic for me as well. I would assume that this was a predecessor of grimoire literature.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm quite certain their were no Celts or Germanics 50.000 years ago. The Germanic language only separated from Indo-European about 3000 years ago, and I don't think I ever encountered a cross symbol in Indo-European culture itself.
I get your point, though, such a simple symbol as a cross can be expected to be found in a variety of cultures with very different meanings.

I agree with this actually, it's more proto-Celt/pre-Germanic pagans, etc... I was just simplifying... You start talking in terms like this and it confuses the masses. As long as we have been able to form two lines we've been making this symbol, which I think is enough to say. :D

My impression is rather that the South American syncretisms are the result of a very practical and experience based form of Christianity influenced by the traditional American and African religions.
Also, I got my knowledge on this only from books, but I do remember one syncretism there in which Jesus, Satan and I think Mary were seen as the three aspects of God.
Is that Christianity? Is it not Satanism by your definition?

I tend to reject syncretism mostly because I am theistic and have another way of finding information - that's probably not good enough for most of the people here, but that is why I lean the way I do on the matter. The folk religions are dressing as Christianity rather than being involved in either _Christianity_ or _Satanism_ for their own self-preservation. I think if you are theistic Satanist of any sort then Satan has to be number one, basically, and not just "see him favorably" - I mentioned it that way to be atheist-agnostic-theist inclusive in my first post. :D
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I agree with this actually, it's more proto-Celt/pre-Germanic pagans, etc... I was just simplifying... You start talking in terms like this and it confuses the masses. As long as we have been able to form two lines we've been making this symbol, which I think is enough to say. :D
Touché. I have a rather scientific way of expressing myself, and yes, expressing oneself too clearly can sometimes lead to more confusion than the contrary if people are not used to it.

I tend to reject syncretism mostly because I am theistic and have another way of finding information - that's probably not good enough for most of the people here, but that is why I lean the way I do on the matter. The folk religions are dressing as Christianity rather than being involved in either _Christianity_ or _Satanism_ for their own self-preservation. I think if you are theistic Satanist of any sort then Satan has to be number one, basically, and not just "see him favorably" - I mentioned it that way to be atheist-agnostic-theist inclusive in my first post. :D
Well, I just took your words as you had written them :p
And I also wouldn't really wanna count these folk religions as Christianity or Satanism. I see why they could be considered either, but they are rather their own thing.

Actually, even for agnostic or atheist Satanists, the concept of Satan surely is of utmost importants for them as well, even if they don't believe in an actual being.
Only when it comes to polytheists they might have another main deity, but that seems to be actually rather rare. Normally, either they equate their main deity with Satan, or they don't call themselves Satanists but Pagans or whatever.
 

Sutekh

Priest of Odin
Premium Member
As a result most Satanists refuse to do things like do "reverse" or mock Christian rituals, or use the Christian Bible to shape their beliefs.


When it comes to mocking christian rituals or doing things in reverse I consider this psychologically beneficial to that extent. As far as by using the Christian bible to shape ones belief, to me I regard this as a waste of time, but it is your own decision to do what you want to do.
 
Last edited:

Sutekh

Priest of Odin
Premium Member
So let me ask this; the inverted cross is actually a Christian symbol called the Cross of Saint Peter. I'm not sure how many Satanist actually use this symbol, but if we are to use Christian symbols in the first place, at what point are we "reverse Christians" and where is the safe zone from that?

As far as using christian symbols magically speaking I regard this to be a healthy initiatory way on getting rid of past indoctrination, at times you feel rather self liberated as a result by freeing yourself from these confines.
 

Sutekh

Priest of Odin
Premium Member
What about things condemned by the Churches that are used by syncretic Christians, like some folk saints? Would practicing Satanism with such figures be "reverse Christianity"?

Well when it comes to synchronizing various christian figures that might differ from Mileage to Mileage within just regular Satanism then you are connecting to yourself to the Christian World. Yes, in that respect I regard most of Satanism to be within the Christian World as Satanism is meant to be the opposite way which is also the basis for the LHP. However I do not really consider myself to be connected to the Christian world, I still practice a form of Satanism but from my own way.
 

Sutekh

Priest of Odin
Premium Member
Does it not matter as long as our veiws differ from the dogmatic monotheistic holy-light-brotherhood?

I don't really know on how to answer this question of yours lol:D. Of course it wouldn't really matter, yes I admit I always feel so sick to my stomach when I would hear others thoughts regarding the corruption and lies of Christianity when one is beginning Satanism but in a different reverse form.
 
Last edited:

Sutekh

Priest of Odin
Premium Member
Basically "reverse Satanism" means "hollywood satanism" or at least believing in Christianity but siding with the devil.

As far as believing in Christianity and siding with the Devil I tend to remain neutral on that. I believe that Jesus was at the wrong place and at the wrong time not knowing that the Prince of Darkness influenced humanity greatly.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
So let me ask this; the inverted cross is actually a Christian symbol called the Cross of Saint Peter. I'm not sure how many Satanist actually use this symbol, but if we are to use Christian symbols in the first place, at what point are we "reverse Christians" and where is the safe zone from that?
If Satan and the dark ones are originally Man's Gods then referring to Christian symbols or other things for meaning on purpose seems somewhat dishonest, unless used for blasphemy.

What about things condemned by the Churches that are used by syncretic Christians, like some folk saints? Would practicing Satanism with such figures be "reverse Christianity"? Does it not matter as long as our veiws differ from the dogmatic monotheistic holy-light-brotherhood?
It depends on what those saints represent. Santa Muerte IMHO is a good example of an LHP folk deity.
 
Top