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Revelation's riddles

Heneni

Miss Independent
I have,for some reason, taken an interest in the book of Revelation. I've never really attempted to study it in detail, and most of the commentaries i have attempted to read about it has been confusing, and left me picking up other reading material. But during the last two days, I believe by the nudging of the HS, i have taken up this task of examining the puzzles contained in the book.

I'll post here what i believe im learning...but often times it takes a bit of time for the concepts to settle into their required place, in my own mind, before it settles permanently in my spirit, and so i cannot guarentee that what i write here is absolute truth, but it only a demonstration of hashing out questions i have and hopefully by the end of this study...i would have some concrete answers. I usually end up asking god tons of questions, and i am aware of the fact that he might not answer them all, and that he might not even give me personally all the answers, but that there are others who have information that is valuable too.

If you have anything to add or you believe you have a different perspective that could shed light on the matter please do so. But if your not a chirstains please refrain from trashing my words, however if you are not a christian, and you have some input that could help solve the puzzles, please to participate.

Also, English is not my first language, though it is my first love in languages. So my writing might not be all that clear. Also keep in mind that i sometimes struggle to put on paper what i see in my spirit.

Alright enough of that.

I will come back to the fist church and the first seal later. But first id like to show the links between the churches and the seals of the remaining 6 churches and 6 seals.

I believe that there are seven types of christians on this earth, but for now im going to have to call them seven types of people. In relation to their relationship with god that is.

The second church is described as follows:

9I know your afflictions and your poverty--yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

This is a description of a group of people who have suffered afllictions and poverty (yet they are rich). They have been slandered by people who call themselves Jews. The bad news is...these people are warned that they are going to suffer (some more). Their affliction and their poverty is a mystery. How can they be afflicted and poor, yet rich at the same time. I can only conclude that the poverty and /or riches is linked to spiritual poverty/material poverty and/or matrialistic afflictions/spriritual afflictions.

They are either rich in material possessions and poor in spiritual graces, or the other way around. However, since they are about to be put in prison, by the devil, in order to be tested, in can only conclude that the testing will be of a spiritual nature. So HOW poor they are spiritually will probably be determined by the test. A prison is a place of restriction. And i believe what that means, is that they will be restricted in the worldly system by spiritual forces to remain prosperious.

The scripture says...they are to remain faithfull, during the test, even to the point of death. Its my estimation that they could very well die. And that their faithfullness can only be demonstrated by not giving in and copping out, but giving their own lifes for the sake of their faith. However, it could also be that they must remain faithful to the point of death, but death is not necessarily the outcome. The bible continues to say...that they will not be hurt by the second death. I'm a bit uncertain why the bible calls it a second death..but that aside...it seems like there is death involved and that would be the indication that this group of people have passed their test.

Now the second church, I believe is linked to the third seal. Here is the third seal:

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The second church (group of people) were rich, and then they suffered. Probably because they losts their riches, maybe not all of it, but economic pressure can very well bring about the circumstances that the second church will find themselves in. If those people get offended by loosing their riches, they will not remain faithfull and hence will be hurt by the second death. The third seal talks about quarts of weat for a days wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages. This means...that these people will find themselves working but having less and less to feed their family with. They will become poorer as time goes on because the black horse rider is holding a pair of scales in his hand, which i believe represents the economy. But in any economy, as the rich get richer the poor get poorer. So the rich church, even though they were comfortable..will be segregated from the rest of the rich and become poorer. But will they remain faithfull? Prosperity teaching will probably be exposed as a bit of an overkill theology during this time in these people's lives.

Then there is the 'do not hurt the oil and wine' part of the seal. That i'm not too sure about, but as the oil prices drop or rise, some people get richer and others get poorer. And as for the wine...well.....I dont know.

Any comments and ideas before i go on to the next church and seal?

Love
Heneni
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I recommend Richard Baukham's The Theology of the Book of Revelation. It's not confusing. In particular, he addresses how matters of genre affect the interpretation of Revelation, which may prove helpful to you.

Personally, I don't understand why one should assume there's any connection between the seals and Jesus' addresses to the churches that open Revelation. The mere fact that there are six of each is not a compelling reason.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
What makes you think that the seals are tests? What is it about apocalyptic prophecy told in the form of a circular letter, not to mention other apocalyptic literature, that tells you that the seals should be regarded as tests? Do you notice a relationship between the seals and anything else from canonical scripture or first-century history?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I wish revelation had never been included in the Bible...It only just made it ...
It make no sense to me to try and interpret its meanings.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
I believe the seals are tests for the seven groups of people, because everytime a seal is opened its sets in motion a set of events that affect them in particular. The events of the seals, is closely linked to the condition of a particular church. As i have shown, in the second church there is an issue of poverty/riches....and corresponding to that is the third seal...the rider with the economic scales. The charge against the church is laid down by god. So god tells them what they are doing right....then he tells them what he has against them...then there is a period of listening...and then the test comes to see if they have changed. The test is the opening of the seal. And if thy pass...bobs your uncle!

The seals come first..later the trumpets and the bowls...which are for the rest of the world. The idea is to surive to the end of the test ( the seal), in other words...HEAD gods warnings and change! Judgement starts in the house of god. If these groups of people do make it to the end of the period of that particular seal...then they will recieve a reward.

I'm sure there are many books if not thousands written about these things already...i suppose if youd rather read them, you might find that they are helpful. I have not found any book to be more valuable than my natural god given instint to listen to the HS. Take from my postings what you will...or wont. Its quite alright by me.:angel2: And as i have said...im still hashing this out until it settles permanantly in my spirit. I would say that anybody that reads my posts should pray about it, or ignore it. That simple.

God works in mysterious ways though...just the other day i was thinking..i have NO idea what this revelation book is about, and today...i have started to get some idea. And god has put things in my way to help me get answers. Im just on a journey here....you may take the left path or the right path at any point, but right now i'm keeping my course. I'll frequently admit in this thread that I DONT KNOW...until I DO KNOW.


Heneni
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
I wish revelation had never been included in the Bible...It only just made it ...
It make no sense to me to try and interpret its meanings.

The book of revelation is riddled with riddles!

I do see something interesting though. In the book jesus says...i am the beginning and the end. The alpha and the omega. And i think if we use that 'key' if you will, we will see that many things in the book of revelation is cause and effect.

There is a period of mercy...then judgement...and then wrath. And the seals, trumpets and bowl are linked to these three things.

I know that the children of god are not appointed to wrath, so i would think that those who have been dedicated to god wont be here for the sixth seal. In the sixth seal, there is great cosmic upset. And the people on the earth hide in mountains, the sky recede, mountains and islands are removed from their place. Not a nice picture. But even if some are still here for this event..they can still get their ducks in a row...until there is silence in heaven. Then i guess the judgements have stopped and god rests his case.

Its a minefield, revelations, so many opportunities to trip up. Lets see how many minefields i can dodge. I trust that god will give me understanding as he chooses. And will send whatever needs to be sent along my path to help me understand that which he deems it necessary for me to understand. He might very well decide im not going to tell you some things. And thats ok too.

Heneni
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Church number three:

This one has me puzzled...the details evade me..but I propose that the third church is linked to dear old peter.

This is what they bible says about the third church:

To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

This is gods thumbs up:

These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13I know where you live--where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to
death in your city--where Satan lives.

This is what he has against them:

14Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. 15Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

This is what they must do:

16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

This is the reward:

To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Here is why i think that this is the church started by peter:

I know many wont agree with me..but the vactican is built on a very dodgy site, previously known to have been the throne of satan...anyway..lets leave that there.

Next:

God says he will :fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Jesus said to peter: If you live by the sword you will die by the sword.

The roman catholic church has a history of violence.

Next:

God says whoever overcomes will eat of the hidden manna.

Peter was suppose to FEED the sheep. Whatever they have been fed isnt doing them much good it seems.


Next:

When Jesus spoke to peter at one point..he said, that peter was a rock. If you consider that rock to be given the name peter, this is what jesus says he will do to those who overcome the grip that they are in: he will give them a white stone with a new name. And he says that that name will be a secret.

There are some people who believe that the teaching of balaam is that of peter.

Lets see how these people will be tested:

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Death is associated with the grim reaper. The grim reaper can cut someones life short. He could do that by using sword, famine, plague and wild beasts. The horse is pale...sort of like the complexion of something that is dead.

Since hell, at the moment is empty...i believe hades is following after death here, in order to be filled up. Jesus took the keys of hell when he went to the belly of the earth. Maybe he has unlocked it now. The keys of hades and the keys that peter have to the kingdom are direct opposites to each other here.

Here we see hades following after death..and its probably been opened to recieve those who have obeyed and listened to the corruption of the teachings of balaam. This is not a diss on the catholic church. There are many in the church who, as the discourse about the church states...have not renounced their faith in christ. Something that peter momentarily did, he renounced the fact that he even knew christ. Would they renounce god when the grim reaper comes? If they do...hades will be filled up.

. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. (that is jesus) 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Peter is also i believe the 'wise' manager: Peter asked jesus a question and here is the answer:

42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

I know that im not painting a very pretty picture of peter here. I am either right about peter's deflection here i.t.o his job to feed the sheep OR...he is feeding..but those whom he is feeding is corrupting the message. That is also quite possible.

But that this church is linked to peter is quite clear to me.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Heneni, I'm afraid you're completely ignoring the important issues of genre and context in order to expound your theories. That's a serious weakness.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Hi dunemeister.

I would imagine that bible school taught me all about context.

Anyway...i think i shall move ahead for now and see where it leads me. Very often people would like to think that they know the context of scripture, but really my life is my context. And in the case of revelations I would say the signs of the times is the context.

I shall ask the HS to help me in my weaknesses. But i am not the kind of person to be told, by any human tribunal or any well to do christian that what i am being taught...is weak. But as i have said before...and what you are struggling to understand...is that this endeavour to understand the riddles of revelation is a process. You might as well forget about this thread then...because for the next few seals and churches..you are not going to be happy about the context either.

Perhaps im posting here as a record for myself. And hopefully others will engage, maybe even get something from it.

I would harldy argue with the spirit. If im being taught by the HS...im not going to argue. And im not going to argue about this particular thread because its not in the 'argue' section.

I dont always get it right...sometimes that which im taught and that which my own mind percieves is intermingled. Its like my thoughts and that of the HS is mixed together. When the mixture settles that which is heavier plops into my spirit..and remains there as the truth, and i shall never change my mind about it. So right now...we are mixing. But im excited about what im learning. Since im not smart enough to figure riddles out myself...id say the HS is crucial here. The book has never opened up to me. A vail has somehow been lifted. I hope that im ready to see. Thats about all i can hope for.

God is good.


Heneni
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Hi dunemeister.

I would imagine that bible school taught me all about context.

You may have been introduced to the notion, but your explication of Revelation leads me to believe that your tutelage in apocalyptic writing has been perfunctory. I'm just suggesting that you read a bit more widely, including academic sources, concerning how to handle it. You just seem to be ignoring everything that has been written and striking out on your own, spinning your own yarn. And that simply doesn't do justice to the text. At the very least, you should let us in on the interpretive principles that you're using. That's the point of my previous questions.

Anyway...i think i shall move ahead for now and see where it leads me. Very often people would like to think that they know the context of scripture, but really my life is my context. And in the case of revelations I would say the signs of the times is the context.

Ah, I thought you were interpreting Revelation. Now I understand that you're simply telling us about yourself, and Revelation is just your preferred means of doing so.

I shall ask the HS to help me in my weaknesses. But i am not the kind of person to be told, by any human tribunal or any well to do christian that what i am being taught...is weak. But as i have said before...and what you are struggling to understand...is that this endeavour to understand the riddles of revelation is a process. You might as well forget about this thread then...because for the next few seals and churches..you are not going to be happy about the context either.

So you're "not the kind of person to be told", eh? Lack of accountability is how cults start. The Holy Spirit works THROUGH the Church. He can (and does) work otherwise, but to claim to be following the Holy Spirit RATHER THAN the Church is madness. How do you know you're following the Holy Spirit rather than some other? Scripture's pretty clear that wisdom requires several counselors and a wise man will listen to critique. So are you wise or arrogant?

Perhaps im posting here as a record for myself. And hopefully others will engage, maybe even get something from it.

You're free to do so, of course. I have engaged, but I can see that you will brook no critique.

I would harldy argue with the spirit. If im being taught by the HS...im not going to argue. And im not going to argue about this particular thread because its not in the 'argue' section.

Fair comment (about the section, not the Holy Spirit).

I dont always get it right...sometimes that which im taught and that which my own mind percieves is intermingled. Its like my thoughts and that of the HS is mixed together. When the mixture settles that which is heavier plops into my spirit..and remains there as the truth, and i shall never change my mind about it. So right now...we are mixing. But im excited about what im learning. Since im not smart enough to figure riddles out myself...id say the HS is crucial here. The book has never opened up to me. A vail has somehow been lifted. I hope that im ready to see. Thats about all i can hope for.

One of the ways you can know whether you're seeing or not is to submit your method and conclusions to the analysis of others. If they find a problem, wisdom demands not that you assume you're hearing the HS aright and the other person is not. Rather, it demands that you seriously consider it, especially if it seems reasonable. Otherwise, you're not learning anything (Holy Spirit involved or not).

God is good.

No doubt.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Traditional theology seems to some people, like reading recipes to the starving. Im not looking for traditional views here. Its choking me.

So...if anybody has anything else to add, please do so.:)



heneni
 

gzusfrk

Christian
I believe revelation is very deep, more than the human mind can comprehend, tho you are welcome to try. It will be hard for me to believe the Holy Spirit will give any help in this manner as God shows no partiality, If He tells you, He will have to tell me and a lot of other people, However I do believe He answers prayers. I believe revelation's was wrote as a map of the future to the end, so it will be as He has written it, no power can change it.
 
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