1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Revelation Writing a Proof of God?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by TransmutingSoul, May 10, 2022.

  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This is a discussion on how the Message of God has come to Humanity.

    I think we have been gifted a proof of God in a way that many have not yet heard about, so are also yet to consider its value.

    Both he Bab and Baha'u'llah revealed their messages in the same way. This ability was passed on to Abdul'baha (but not as a Messenger).

    I will start the discussion with Baha'u'llah, who's Revelation came via both the Persian and Arabic Languages.

    The topic is not about the copious amount of writings, or even the speed of those writings, amazing as that was, these aspects can have other explanations attributed to that phenomenon. Yet combined with the following, may become a proof.

    Many writings came about by answering a question, an example is the Kitab-i-iqan which is 260 pages long, revealed in various sessions over 2 days and nights, which came about by a spontanious reply to a question asked by the Uncle of the Bab.

    The reply that was given, with no preparation needed, no reference books looked at, and no correction required to the flow of words that resulted.

    This is an example Leaf from the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf (Lawh-i-Ibn-i-Dhi'b), in the "Revelation" handwriting of Mirza Aqa Jan, the secretary of Bahá’u’lláh.

    revelation-writing-bahaullah_282.jpg
    "Revelation" writing - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

    I see that Messages such as given by Jesus Christ and Muhammad came via the same method.

    So that is the discussion. The phenomenon of "Revelation Writings". There is a lot of evidences that can be discussed.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    35,503
    Ratings:
    +10,154
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The Writings are part of the proof, but they are not the most important part.
    The Messenger (Manifestation of God) is the best proof that God exists and the only way to know anything about God.

    “He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

    Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claim to be a Messenger of God. He enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and if those are not sufficient we are to look at His words (His Writings).

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Another work is the Kitab i Badi (an untranslated book which is twice the size of the Kitab-i-Iqan) It is a reply to defend and prove Baha’u’llahs station as Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest, again it contains many references.

    I am yet to confirm, but one source said it was dictated in 6 hours.

    This is a link to the untranslated text.

    كتاب بديع

    Regards Tony
     
    #3 TransmutingSoul, May 10, 2022
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    35,503
    Ratings:
    +10,154
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Imo, the fact that these texts were dictated in such a short period of time is evidence of a superhuman ability, which attests to the twofold nature of Messengers of God, one nature divine and one human.

    “So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred......... A certain Muḥammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.”
    God Passes By. pp. 137-138
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,337
    Ratings:
    +6,133
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    I disagree that the works of Baha'u'llah and the Bab constitute proof of God, people with photographic memories are known to exist and have no need of reference material.

    Besides, the quotes of Baha'u'llah are known to contain errors, which they wouldn't if they were from an All-knowing God.

    In my opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    15,393
    Ratings:
    +9,158
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    God can do anything...also let humans, including Bahaullah, make errors. At least Bahaullah got a chance to stay humble IF such an error has been made

    IF I were God,
    I would make sure to let those who claim that I speak through them, make at least 3 errors

    I did not not give them brains to follow heard voices etc. blindly, they should always use common sense + discrimination, whether they follow human guidance or Divine guidance, unless...
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    10,069
    Ratings:
    +9,077
    Religion:
    none
    Revelation has a serious epistemological problem. How do you decide which "revealed" message is true if you encounter two contradicting ones?
    If I were to claim that Bobby Henderson is the prophet of this age, how do you know if that's true (or false)?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    64,123
    Ratings:
    +22,093
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    I always find it interesting to see what other people consider impressive.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What is the chance that 2 x Messengers and the Son of a Messenger, all part of the same revelation, had this rare capacity? Then one would also have to consider if they had access to such material to read in the first place.

    From what I have found there are no errors. Some of the greatest Islamic Scholars could not confirm any error. In fact everytime Baha'u'llah did quote unknown traditions, a search to prove Baha'u'llah wrong ultimately ended in them finding Baha'u'llah was correct.

    There is very good reason why both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were banished and exiled. It is because they could not find fault with what they offered.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Personally I see anything revealed from God will not contradict any other God given message.

    Laws will differ. Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    When Abdul'baha was very busy writing replies to letters, at the same time he was writing a reply, he was able to dictate to 5 other secretaries, each answering a different question.

    Never did the train of thought for each dictation ever get confused, nor were any corrections required.

    That is just an example of the amazing. I doubt anyone could say it is not amazing.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    10,069
    Ratings:
    +9,077
    Religion:
    none
    Non-contradiction is good criterion for an epistemology. Does that mean that you believe there are no messages from god? Because I'm pretty sure that everything that has been said to be a message from has elsewhere been contradicted by an alleged message from god.
     
  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The errors that Daniel mentions are found on sites that aim to discredit Baha'u'llah. I doubt there is any legitimate record of any error, as if there was, that would have definitely been used against Baha'u'llah by the Divines in his age.

    They were looking for any way to discredit Baha'u'llah, but everytime when they thought that He had misquoted Islamic Traditions, they always found he was correct.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The purpose of this topic is the possibility of a person being able to validity answer a random complex question in a manner that is continuous, without reference material, and without the need for corrections.

    There are many records of this. I can quote one specific notable incident, if you wish to consider what this OP is exploring

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    10,069
    Ratings:
    +9,077
    Religion:
    none
    So your criterion isn't non-contradiction but the ability "to validity answer a random complex question in a manner that is continuous, without reference material, and without the need for corrections"?
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Well as "non-contradiction" was not mentioned by me, the ability "to validity answer a random complex question in a manner that is continuous, without reference material, and without the need for corrections" is more in tune with what this discussion is.

    So I will give an example of a story of what this OP is discussing.

    "...One of the most outstanding events of Bahá'u'lláh's sojourn in Sulaymáníyyih, which captured the hearts of the people, was the revelation in public of a poem in Arabic known as Qasídiy-i-Varqá'íyyih. The divines of Sulaymáníyyih requested Bahá'u'lláh to undertake a task, which no one had previously accomplished, of writing a poem in the same rhyme as Qasídiy-i-Tá'íyyih, one of the works of the celebrated Arabic poet Ibn-i-Fárid.

    Accepting their request, Bahá'u'lláh dictated no less than two thousand verses as He sat in their midst. Amazed at such a revelation, those present were spellbound and lost in admiration at His performance. They acclaimed His verses as far superior in their beauty, lucidity and profundity to the original poem by Ibn-i-Fárid. Knowing that the subject-matter was beyond the people's comprehension, He chose one hundred and twenty-seven verses and allowed them to be copied...."

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    10,069
    Ratings:
    +9,077
    Religion:
    none
    OK, so what we have here is you, not a messenger, relating a story by someone who also isn't a messenger about someone who is alleged to be a messenger able to create poems.
    By your own criteria I have two untrustworthy reporters and, as yet, not even a message.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    8,409
    Ratings:
    +473
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    If a human any human says I live as a human and I teach a human message.

    Then it was always human.

    If you are a human Messenger of God...then you're a human man. Born a human baby boy. So the first human father ever you knew came from the position eternal God.

    You remember your father. You know he is a spiritual being hence humans are spiritual beings living a physical transcended life.

    Owning no concept material...spatial...earth or it's heavens.

    Yet to remember it means you bodily personally physically as a human had bodily changed adapted which is by terms .....cosmic changes.... heavenly changes. Consciously.

    Basic human scientific themes.

    Don't own nor use any type of machine or machine thesis. Which was imposed only for Maths science human only reasoning. Machine technology.

    You stand on planet earth as one human species.

    You claim dominion so everything else is less than you and so is before you...you arrive only after all other life forms exist.

    So you cannot reason pre existence as you aren't there.

    Science...satanic to minus from the highest position. Which human self claims is dominion.

    If you preach science of God by a man adult once a baby boy you theme backward giving human advice......
    I was adult life harmed as my boy baby man isn't owner ovary cell a humans woman baby adult owns.

    Instead miraculously my boy baby used the ovary then returned from my deceased man's father's pre form into my own. As a man doesn't own the ovary.

    Was a human scientists themed study of his human genesis human life body and how and why it was biologically sacrificed cell blood body changed.

    Identified one human is species with God only. Two of in species very different human bodies that cannot be one human maths theoried.

    A humans teaching versus satanic life of man by science attack.

    The teaching.
     
  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    16,690
    Ratings:
    +7,765
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    OK, it appears this discussion is not for you. The flaw in your reply is you have accused reports as not trustworthy, without showing how those reports are untrustworthy.

    I do know if you were to go to Sulaymáníyyih, the accuracy of these reports will be verifiable.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    6,337
    Ratings:
    +6,133
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    Are you asking this rhetorically or do you want an answer?
     
Loading...