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Revelation without Jesus?

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
I wouldn't be surprised if it were true because I already believe that either Jesus did not exist in biblical times or that he was merely an ordinary man and a popular religious teacher whose devoted followers devised and spread implausible stories about him, such as miraculously turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, miraculously healing or curing the sick with his touch, and feeding at least 5,000 people with only five loaves of bread and two fish. In my opinion, the men who wrote these stories are more adept at writing fiction than telling the truth that there was nothing supernatural about Jesus at all. They may have been disappointed in Jesus and decided to spread false stories about him and adapt Greek myths to make him appear godlike in order to gain followers.

Assuming that Jesus existed in biblical times, then it's most likely that his followers embellished the stories about him, and more embellishment and folklore were later added to these stories to make him appear to be more than he actually was. I think that it is more likely that he was simply a well-liked religious teacher whose devoted followers spread false stories about him to make him appear godlike. I also think that it's likely that a few stories about him were copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other pagan religions as well, which predate both Christianity and the Bible. In my opinion, paganism had a significant impact on the stories about Jesus, and as I've explained in other posts (such as this one), paganism also had a significant impact on Christianity as well.

As I mentioned in other threads, the savior story of Jesus isn't the first of its kind, and in my opinion, it isn't any more believable than all the other savior stories that predate his, such as "10 Christ-Like Figures that Predate Jesus" and "Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ." In fact, these articles provide several more examples of pagan Christlike figures whose lives parallel Jesus', including being born of a virgin, being tempted by the devil before beginning an earthly ministry, miraculously healing the sick, dying to atone for humanity, descending into the underworld after death, and resurrected from the dead after three days.

The stories of Jesus' crucifixion, death, and resurrection are similar to those of Attis, the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation (1250 BCE). According to the stories of Attis, he was divinely born of a virgin; he was hung on a tree and died; he descended into the underworld after his death; he was resurrected after three days; and he brought salvation with him upon his rebirth. The article "Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days" contains more stories about Attis and Jesus that are similar.

In my opinion, the other stories of Christlike figures demonstrate that some of the stories of Jesus were influenced by paganism and that Christianity isn't unique in its beliefs, despite the claims by Christians that the Bible is inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. The truth is that Christians bicker amongst themselves about biblical interpretation and theology, yet they seem to expect us, meaning unbelievers, to take whatever the Bible says at face value. In my opinion, the other stories of Christlike figures demonstrate that some of the stories of Jesus were influenced by paganism and that Christianity isn't unique in its beliefs, despite the claims by Christians that the Bible is inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world.

The truth is that Christians bicker amongst themselves about biblical interpretation and theology, yet they seem to expect unbelievers to take whatever the Bible says at face value. In my opinion, if they cannot agree with each other about what the Bible teaches, then why should we agree with them about the Bible or their interpretation of the Bible? "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

All excellent points.

Personally, I think this jesus mythology was pretty much like you outlined above, but became the predominate religion of the time and into the future (Now.) mostly because of their addition of an effective reward/punishment brainwashing system that they refined to an art over the centuries. Well, that and their forcing it upon everyone else.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Again. Quite arbitrary. With your position you are actually saying no book has God behind its composition. Certainly you have the right to say that but it wouldn't make it true because you said it.

While I don't know Windwalker's position on that, mine is that ALL man made books have nothing to do with God.

God has always imparted to me all the answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner, so that I have a full understanding of the matter.

So there is no way anyone will ever convince me that God had anything to do with the train wreck called the bible or any other religion's book. The biggest problem I have with the bible is that in all of the 783,131 words in the bible there is not even one good verse that clearly describes anything truly spiritual.

Even on the very basics like:

God - A divine spiritual entity. There is nothing to describe his existence/nature.
Soul - the spiritual essence of who really are. The word soul is used 55 times in the bible and after some 2000 years of going around killing people and forcing them to accept Christianity to "save" their souls, and the bible has not even ONE description of what the hell a soul even is.
Heaven - A spiritual place. Nothing in the bible clearly describing what it will be like either.

This screams to me that it was written solely upon the "inspiration" of spiritually clueless MAN.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
While I don't know Windwalker's position on that, mine is that ALL man made books have nothing to do with God.

God has always imparted to me all the answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner, so that I have a full understanding of the matter.

So there is no way anyone will ever convince me that God had anything to do with the train wreck called the bible or any other religion's book. The biggest problem I have with the bible is that in all of the 783,131 words in the bible there is not even one good verse that clearly describes anything truly spiritual.

Even on the very basics like:

God - A divine spiritual entity. There is nothing to describe his existence/nature.
Soul - the spiritual essence of who really are. The word soul is used 55 times in the bible and after some 2000 years of going around killing people and forcing them to accept Christianity to "save" their souls, and the bible has not even ONE description of what the hell a soul even is.
Heaven - A spiritual place. Nothing in the bible clearly describing what it will be like either.

This screams to me that it was written solely upon the "inspiration" of spiritually clueless MAN.
Ok... I can see where you are coming from.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Can A Pre-Christian Version of the Book of Revelation Be Recovered?


I find this fascinating, that Jesus is just pasted in the document like in Josephus.
The thing about the Bible, which is fascinating to me, is that it is its own battalion, which no one can win against. The reason for that is obvious to me. It is not the word of man - but God's word... put together by God, by means of the most powerful force i the universe - holy spirit. It is God breathed. 2 Timothy 3:16.

So, I think the author of that article has a serious problem - a problem they can never rectify, no matter how hard they try - a battle with the scriptures themselves.
 
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AdamjEdgar

Active Member
While I don't know Windwalker's position on that, mine is that ALL man made books have nothing to do with God.

God has always imparted to me all the answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner, so that I have a full understanding of the matter.

So there is no way anyone will ever convince me that God had anything to do with the train wreck called the bible or any other religion's book. The biggest problem I have with the bible is that in all of the 783,131 words in the bible there is not even one good verse that clearly describes anything truly spiritual.

Even on the very basics like:

God - A divine spiritual entity. There is nothing to describe his existence/nature.
Soul - the spiritual essence of who really are. The word soul is used 55 times in the bible and after some 2000 years of going around killing people and forcing them to accept Christianity to "save" their souls, and the bible has not even ONE description of what the hell a soul even is.
Heaven - A spiritual place. Nothing in the bible clearly describing what it will be like either.

This screams to me that it was written solely upon the "inspiration" of spiritually clueless MAN.
Is this a cry for theological help or simply an absurd way of discrediting the only written account of the nature of God and how it (Creation) turned to s@#t?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A: Unlike God, humans are liars.
B: Paul is human.
C: …
Context is just as important here, as anywhere else.

The same Paul, wrote.
Hebrews 13:18
Keep praying for us, for we trust we have an honest* conscience, as we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things.

Obviously, he was not contradicting himself... but finding reasonableness, in this unreasonable world, is not what is to be commonly expected.
 

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Is this a cry for theological help or simply an absurd way of discrediting the only written account of the nature of God and how it (Creation) turned to s@#t?

Sorry if you don't understand true spiritual matters.

But if there's a verse, or verses in the bible, that clearly and concisely describes his true spiritual nature, please post them in a reply. I've never been able to find any.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I find it fascinating that someone will just take the word of an author who sounds like he’s tripping hard.
I don’t simply take an author’s word, nor should anyone… hopefully. The scriptures encourage one to test all things for truth and to search checking for reliability.


These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11


Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
 
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