Revelation and the LDS Church – Question time

[idea]

tell you what, though i have lots to say. ill concentrate only on the part where you claim mormons/the book of mormon/joseph smith is/ are not racist.

At some points the Nephites (white) are favored, at some points the Lamanites (dark) are favored. The two groups go back and forth.

speaking of the Lamanites (dark people):

at this point, the white people have issues, Lamanites are shown to have more loving fams etc....

7 Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?
(Book of Mormon | Jacob3:7)


The BoM ends with the white people falling/horribly sinful - the dark people kill all the white people off. The dark skinned people win in the end!

The Curse of Cain

Brothers and sisters, black skin isn't a curse. The curse of Cain was eternal separation from God. The curse was never being allowed back in the Father's presence. The curse was knowing that he (Cain) had listened to the wrong voice and failed his mortal mission. That was the curse, not the skin. The dark skin was given as a protection. As my father has so beautifully taught me, black skin isn't a curse, it's a calling. I'd like to think that in the pre-existence, when told I had the opportunity to come to Earth, I chose this skin color just like I'm told I chose my parents (although I'm not so sure about that one). My father and I agree that we've become rather partial to our black skin and certainly hope we take it with us to the next life. After all, we make black look good!
I have a poem here written by Margaret Blair Young entitled He Gifted Us Our Race. Even though Sister Young is white, I think her poem accurately describes our feelings.

It's not a curse but a gift t'us,
The best path we could seek
A place where God can lift us
We kneel; our knees is weak
And when one of us is kneelin',
We understand his fears.
We know what all us is feelin'
We cry each other's tears.
That's just what Jesus done
For all us human folk.
He agreed to come get born
To feel ever' pain and poke.
So's he could understand us,
What it is to be a slave.
So's he could get beneath us
And push us outa the grave
Would you rather be the massa
Or the Roman with his whip?
Would you rather nail the Savior--
Put vinegar to his lip?
Or learn the lessons of sufferin'--
How we nothin' without grace.
Jesus, He give us a callin'
He gifted us our race.

from http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2002_Dispelling_the_Black_Myth.html

 

[tomasortega]

God does not reveal things to only a small group of people. Everyone has a conscience, our conscience literally comes from Christ - everyone who follows their conscience follows Christ.

but what conscience? everyone has a different conscience or moral compass. for some polygamy is a sin. for others it is not. for some homosexuality is no big deal, others say it comes from satan. some tribes practice or at least used to practice human sacrifice.

the difference in everyone's conscience and moral compass is the single strongest proof for god's inexistence. because if god really did exist, and provide every single human with conscience, then we would all have the same conscience!!! from the same divine source.

instead our morality is based on the culture and environment we live in. not too long ago it was moral to own slaves, now it is immoral. id say even a sin.


by the way, you and any other LDS is welcome to reply to my post to katz about racism

 

[linwood]

my questions are simple and basic.

1. how is it that god only decided to reveal himself under his true LDS definition to some guy, joseph smith was it? about what, 200 years ago? when humanity existed for tenths maybe even hundreds of thousands of years before that. because to believe that is to believe that god simply looked down on us, indifferent, with his arms folded for 98% of human history.

The King James Bible is also LDS canon.
Smith was not the first or only prophet Mormons believe in.

2. is it true that the book of mormon claims that god especially likes or preferrs fair skinned people. in other words, is god a racist? if god is the creator of all humans, then that means that he deliberately chose to create some people (dark skinned) inferior to others(light skinned)

The BOM was first published in 1830 and looked different than any published BOM you`ll find today.
It is much more politically correct with the times.
Earlier publications inferred racism without actually stating it anywhere to my knowledge.
However it was taught as doctrine by Mormon prophets.

President Brigham Young:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses 10:110)​

President Joseph Fielding Smith:

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less." (Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61)
20 Concerns about Mormonism
​

3. is poligamy a sin? or immoral? adultery? if so, then why did you lds only realize it this late in the game. didnt god tell you? and why are some of you (fundamentalists) still practicing poligamy.

Don`t mistake the fundamentalist Mormon Church for LDS.
The two are permanently separated by schism over polygamy

 

[Katzpur]

NOW, ARE YOU GOING TO GET OFFENDED, CLAIM I AM RUDE FOR QUOTING YOUR HOLY BOOK AND USE THAT AS AN EXCUSE TO RUN AND HIDE, OR ARE YOU GONNA COME OUT AND TRY TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF??

For a newbie, Tomas, you're pretty presumptuous, aren't you? You don't know me at all, and yet you immediately suppose that you know exactly how I'm going to react. Yes, you are rude, not for quoting the Book of Mormon or for having a point of view that differs from mine, but for the in-your-face tone of your accusation. I have already stated that I will respond to questions posed in a civil, respectful manner. You have started off on the wrong foot and aren't going to get anywhere with me by acting like a jerk. Try apologizing for starters. Then ask your question again and see what kind of a response you get.

 

[tomasortega]

At some points the Nephites (white) are favored, at some points the Lamanites (dark) are favored. The two groups go back and forth.

speaking of the Lamanites (dark people):

at this point, the white people have issues, Lamanites are shown to have more loving fams etc....

7 Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator?
(Book of Mormon | Jacob3:7)


The BoM ends with the white people falling/horribly sinful - the dark people kill all the white people off. The dark skinned people win in the end!

first, is the last part of your post part of your holy book, or is it simply some apologetic's opinion.

second, show me where in the book of mormon god cursed the dark skinned people with light skin to even out the passage where god curses people with dark skin.

and show me where repentance and conversion to mormonism will promise darkening in skin as a reward.

simple as that. if you can show me these things to counterbalance the passages ive provided ill buy your response of god, or the author joseph smith not actually being a racist.

what it does leave on the table however is the whole obsession with skincolor. ***? is that really important? apparently it was for a white guy living in racist america.

 

[tomasortega]

For a newbie, Tomas, you're pretty presumptuous, aren't you? You don't know me at all, and yet you immediately suppose that you know exactly how I'm going to react. Yes, you are rude, not for quoting the Book of Mormon or for having a point of view that differs from mine, but for the in-your-face tone of your accusation. I have already stated that I will respond to questions posed in a civil, respectful manner. You have started off on the wrong foot and aren't going to get anywhere with me by acting like a jerk. Try apologizing for starters. Then ask your question again and see what kind of a response you get.

just what i expected. you try to save face and then you run and hide. oh holy whiteness

 

[Watchmen]

tomasortega, you'll have to start your own thread on the topic. otherwise, we'll have to report you for not sticking with the OP of this thread.

For the record:

Black men held the Priesthood when Joseph Smith was prophet.

Mormons were abolitionists. That's a HUGE reason they had problems in Missouri.

 

[Katzpur]

just what i expected. you try to save face and then you run and hide. oh holy whiteness

Excuse me, but what did I say that could possibly be construed as trying to save face? I simply reiterated what I said at the outset of our conversation -- that if you want me to respond to your questions, you'll be civil in asking them. By the way (and pretty much anybody on this forum will tell you this), I don't hedge away from difficult questions. I know my religion and I am willing to discuss it with anyone who is mature enough to stick to the issues without resorting to juvenile behavior. Evidently you don't qualify. Get back to me when you grow up.

 

[tomasortega]

tomasortega, you'll have to start your own thread on the topic. otherwise, we'll have to report you for not sticking with the OP of this thread.

For the record:

Black men held the Priesthood when Joseph Smith was prophet.

Mormons were abolitionists. That's a HUGE reason they had problems in Missouri.

this thread is on questions about the LDS. how exactly am i off topic? apparently you are trying to shut me up because you feel uncomfortable with the passages i quoted from your own holy book. humiliating passages which you would like to ignore

 

[tomasortega]

Excuse me, but what did I say that could possibly be construed as trying to save face? I simply reiterated what I said at the outset of our conversation -- that if you want me to respond to your questions, you'll be civil in asking them. By the way (and pretty much anybody on this forum will tell you this), I don't hedge away from difficult questions. I know my religion and I am willing to discuss it with anyone who is mature enough to stick to the issues without resorting to juvenile behavior. Evidently you don't qualify. Get back to me when you grow up.

how about you answer the questions at hand. rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks. how do you explain god cursing people by darkening their skin???. as if dark skin were a curse. why does your lds god care about skin at all when the true christian god of the bible doesnt.

are you going to come back and call me some more names, or are you gonna man up and explain yourself.

 

[AlwaysSeekingTruth]

are you going to come back and call me some more names, or are you gonna man up and explain yourself.

Do you really expect anyone to have a conversation with you when you act like a fifth-grader? Instead of insulting, acting childish and getting defensive. Get your behind in gear, apologize and act like an adult in these debates. It's embarrassing to watch someone sputter and die, though many times it's quite entertaining.

 

[Watchmen]

this thread is on questions about the LDS. how exactly am i off topic? apparently you are trying to shut me up because you feel uncomfortable with the passages i quoted from your own holy book. humiliating passages which you would like to ignore

I'm not uncomfortable discussing the issue at all, but there's a proper place for it and it's not here. Just because a thread is about the LDS, it doesn't mean you can talk about anything. This thread is specifically about the LDS concept of "revelation." If you want to talk LDS and race then start a separate thread and we'll all be there to discuss it. You're new here so I'll give you another chance before reporting you.

 

[McBell]

how about you answer the questions at hand. rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks. how do you explain god cursing people by darkening their skin???. as if dark skin were a curse. why does your lds god care about skin at all when the true christian god of the bible doesnt.

are you going to come back and call me some more names, or are you gonna man up and explain yourself.

Wow.
If this thread is any indication of how you witness for your God, you royally suck at it.

You are rude, arrogant, disrespectful, and worst of all dictator-ish.

Perhaps if you were to sit down, shut up for a few seconds, and actually LISTEN to what you are being told...

The last time my daughter acted this way, I dusted her britches and grounded her for a week. She was five years old at the time.

 

[tomasortega]

when everyone is done stroking their egos by patronizing me with ad hominem attacks, in an attempt to feel mighty righteous smug and mature so they can have a good nights sleep, how about we get back to business and answer the questions/comments at hand ......new thread opened

 

[McBell]

when everyone is done stroking their egos by patronizing me with ad hominem attacks, in an attempt to feel mighty righteous smug and mature so they can have a good nights sleep, how about we get back to business and answer the questions/comments at hand ......new thread opened

Are you going to behave any better in the new thread?
If not, you merely wasting everyone's time.

 

[Storm]

when everyone is done stroking their egos by patronizing me with ad hominem attacks,

You get what you give, dude.

in an attempt to feel mighty righteous smug and mature

 

[idea]

tell you what, though i have lots to say. ill concentrate only on the part where you claim mormons/the book of mormon/joseph smith is/ are not racist.

Here is a pict:
http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/maya1-lg.jpg

tell me what you see - are these people white/dark skinned, OR HAVE THEY PAINTED THEMSELVES - PLACED A MARK UPON THEMSELVES.

are these really two different ehtnic groups (this image found in south America) or are these simple people who have marked themselves to distinguish themselves?

13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads.
(Book of Mormon | Alma3:13)

18 Now the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God when they began to mark themselves in their foreheads; nevertheless they had come out in open rebellion against God; therefore it was expedient that the curse should fall upon them.
19 Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the acurse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation.
(Book of Mormon | Alma3:18 - 19)


The white and dark skin colors/marks are artificial marks that they put on themselves to distinguish themselves from one another. This is not a racial issue - it is a makeup issue. Who has decided to wear makeup and who does not.

From the BoM:
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi26:33)

The Nephites and the Lamanites are two different groups of people, two different family lines, who just happen to have two different skin colors. The mark that was talked about - this is makeup, not skin color.

Consider that at the time the BoM was translated, most of the settlers considered native Americans to be savages – and the BoM presents them as a civilized society, with Kings, queens, cities, cement roads, etc. etc. etc.


Let me ask you - is this racial?
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
(Old Testament | Psalms119:105)

Is this saying only the path of "light" is good? Please - it is talking about day/night - sunlight - lamp. Being able to see light -

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received asight forthwith, and arose, and was bbaptized.
(New Testament | Acts9:18)
you quoted:
6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi30:6)

2 Nephi 30:6 has NOTHING to do with race. It is about being able to see clearly what is around you, about being clean from sin, etc. etc. You are the one who is racist if the first thought that entered your mind was balck/white people when reading this. It has nothing to do with black/white people. It has to do with spiritual cleanliness. Black people can be as spiritually clean as white people can be.


34 And thus we see that the Nephites (lighter skinned race) did begin to dwindle in unbelief, and grow in wickedness and abominations, while the Lamanites (darker skinned race) began to grow exceedingly in the knowledge of their God; yea, they did begin to keep his statutes and commandments, and to walk in truth and uprightness before him.
35 And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites(light skin), because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts.
36 And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites(dark skin), because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words.
(Book of Mormon | Helaman6:34 - 36)


19 And while the angel spake these words, I beheld and saw that the seed of my brethren did contend against my seed, according to the word of the angel; and because of the pride of my seed(light skined people), and the temptations of the devil, I beheld that the seed of my brethren (dark skin) did overpower the people of my seed.
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi12:19)

would a racist book have an account of dark skinned people overpowering white skinned people????

27 Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section19:27)
would a racist book associate dark skinned people (lamanites) with the chosen family - a remnant of the Jews?

24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section49:24)
would a racist book claim dark skinned people will "blossom as the rose"?

The BoM is NOT racist.

 

[Magic Man]

just what i expected. you try to save face and then you run and hide. oh holy whiteness

I think you need to learn some manners, tom. There is no reason for anyone to talk to Katzpur that way.

 

[Dream Angel]

I think you need to learn some manners, tom. There is no reason for anyone to talk to Katzpur that way.

I second that - katz is a very respected member of this forum. Katz is quite happy to answer ANY questions which are put forward in a polite and respectful way. She also knows her stuff!

 

[Autodidact]

I think it's because others ask questions about their practices.

No. This thread was started in response to my comment (not question) in another thread, in which I discussed how revelation impacted Mormon politics. Someone thought that was OT, and started this thread to discuss the subject. I do not have questions; on the contrary, I think I know quite a lot about it and could probably answer questions, rather than ask them.

Everyone has a bias. I do. You do. If someone wanted to know the truth about what Mormons believe, I suspect they'd get more accurate information from me than from you.

But of course, your opinion would be biased, wouldn't it? Let's let the readers draw their own conclusions.

How do any of these questions pertain to revelation?

They're about the underlying assumptions of the OP.