Rev...unlike USA, all European countries are intrinsically socialist

[Estro Felino]

This is a debate between @Revoltingest and me.
Rev...u've always affirmed that Europe is not socialist....even if the inexorable failure of neo-liberism is awakening the ancient socialist spirit that characterized Europe before and after WW2
The Gilets Jaunes...Italian Populism, are all the first sparkles of an inevitable crisis of globalism...and the return to both Nationalism and Socialism

 

[Altfish]

Henry VIII a socialist - I think not.

 

[Altfish]

The UK didn't have a Labour PM until 1925 (IIRC)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have some idea how @Revoltingest would identify a socialist country, and it's a high bar. Finland was the only nation I could think of even approaching it. I suspect this will come down to what you both would classify as a socialist state.

 

[Shad]

Henry VIII a socialist - I think not.

I think this was a reference to the 19th and early 20th century which saw a number of communist and communist like movements across Europe. WW2 due to it's scale crushed government political power in various nations thus the raise of those groups to said power structure. So if the war never happened how would history have played out? Toss in the Cold War and the failure of communist models in various nations.

 

[Earthling]

This is a debate between @Revoltingest and me.
Rev...u've always affirmed that Europe is not socialist....even if the inexorable failure of neo-liberism is awakening the ancient socialist spirit that characterized Europe before and after WW2
The Gilets Jaunes...Italian Populism, are all the first sparkles of an inevitable crisis of globalism...and the return to both Nationalism and Socialism

I'm certainly no history buff, but that was always my impression.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know what I'm debating, but here is a definition of socialism I'd use.....
the definition of socialism

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

This does not include things like a social safety net.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have some idea how @Revoltingest would identify a socialist country, and it's a high bar. Finland was the only nation I could think of even approaching it. I suspect this will come down to what you both would classify as a socialist state.

Finland doesn't even come close.
In fact, it's so capitalist that I allowed my daughter
to spend enuf time there to learn the language.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know what I'm debating, but here is a definition of socialism I'd use.....
the definition of socialism

This does not include things like a social safety net.

The first socialist parties in Europe, the SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands) and the PSI (Partito Socialista Italiano) were both founded by trade-unionists who didn't want a Marxist Revolution, but to reform the society by making the right to labor an inviolable right.
So, to make it possible, the state was supposed to impose itself and its authority in the private sector, without violating the fundamental rights of the entrepreneurship, in the age of the 2nd Industrial Revolution.

So, yes, de jure, the Italian Constitution and the German one make these two countries socialist.

 

[metis]

No country is purely capitalistic and no country is purely socialistic as all countries today have what we call "mixed economies", thus a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic programs to varying degrees. .

 

[Revoltingest]

The first socialist parties in Europe, the SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands) and the PSI (Partito Socialista Italiano) were both founded by trade-unionists who didn't want a Marxist Revolution, but to reform the society by making the right to labor an inviolable right.
So, to make it possible, the state was supposed to impose itself and its authority in the private sector, without violating the fundamental rights of the entrepreneurship, in the age of the 2nd Industrial Revolution.

So, yes, de jure, the Italian Constitution and the German one make these two countries socialist.

So long as capitalism is alive & well in a country, I wouldn't call it "socialist".
But this is not to say things aren't at risk.

 

[Woberts]

@Estro Felino, as much as I would love for that too be true, it isn't.
Still, there's people working to rectify that problem.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This thread is in One on One Debates. I don't think others should be replying?

 

[Nakosis]

This is a debate between @Revoltingest and me.
Rev...u've always affirmed that Europe is not socialist....even if the inexorable failure of neo-liberism is awakening the ancient socialist spirit that characterized Europe before and after WW2
The Gilets Jaunes...Italian Populism, are all the first sparkles of an inevitable crisis of globalism...and the return to both Nationalism and Socialism

I see them as capitalist countries with a focus on social programs. Socialism doesn't work as an economic system.

 

[Woberts]

Socialism doesn't work as an economic system.

Incorrect.
A dictatorship of the proletariat is leagues better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoise.

 

[Nakosis]

Incorrect.
A dictatorship of the proletariat is leagues better than a dictatorship of the bourgeoise.

Prove it.

 

[Estro Felino]

So long as capitalism is alive & well in a country, I wouldn't call it "socialist".
But this is not to say things aren't at risk.

Just one question: how can a government guarantee the right to labor unless economy is controlled by the state?
The two things are irreconcilable...
We have here juridic procedures that will never exist in the US...like the Redundancy Fund...that helps workers who lose their jobs when a firm goes bankrupt....

Unemployment benefits in Italy - Wikipedia

 

[sun rise]

This thread is in One on One Debates. I don't think others should be replying?

Good point. I'll behave as well in spite of the almost overwhelming urge to put my 2c in.

 

[Estro Felino]

Good point. I'll behave as well in spite of the almost overwhelming urge to put my 2c in.

Other people's point of view is appreciated.

 

[Revoltingest]

Just one question: how can a government guarantee the right to labor unless economy is controlled by the state?

The market reliably supplies labor.
So there's no need to enslave a workforce.

The two things are irreconcilable...
We have here juridic procedures that will never exist in the US...like the Integration Fund...that helps workers who lose their jobs when a firm goes bankrupt....

Unemployment benefits in Italy - Wikipedia

I'm glad I don't live in Italy.