1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Rethinking evolution

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by David T, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    6,017
    Ratings:
    +2,083
    Rethinking Evolution

    Interesting article. Around the mid 1800's Darwin rediscovered what originally was self evident to everyone, including dogs that life is interconnected. Dawrin didnt discovered he mearly rediscovered something.

    His narrative about life interconnected that we call evolution is narrative about life interconnected in a simplistic mechanicalistic interpretation. That narrative is always open for revision regardless it is not a fixed narrative nor is is it predictible how that narrative plays out over time in human expression.

    So since a dog understands life interconnected i am curious as to why some find that so difficult in religious terms. St francis called it "family of god" 800 years ago. Is st francis that difdicult?

    As a theology major there have been a few upon hearing what my degree is in, want to mention evolution. I always respond "oh evolution a dog understands that, seems like a cultural problem" . They respond back "oh its much more complex than that" which i respond "oh you are proposing that evolution is created by a primate brain? Wow powerful brain"

    Life interconnected is self evident no science needed like gravity. If that isnt clear religiously then that religion has a serious problem. In christianity it means its not about the text but fantasies projected onto the text. That is creationism and intelligent design both fantasies.

    In regards to science the narrative evolution is not objective but subjective and always changing and will change in completely unpredictible ways. The simple reason its subjective, is because the topic life interconnected is objective and it determines the science narrative evolution. The narrative is always subjective to the topic life interconnected REGARDLESS. flip that backwards which is common and normal, we have nonsense being called "scientific" and its not.

    What we understand today will be radically different off in the future, especially in context to life interconnected, or as st francis called it "family of god"
     
  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    10,500
    Ratings:
    +7,018
    Religion:
    None
    I am proud to be first to say what?
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,702
    Ratings:
    +1,304
    Religion:
    I hope there is something out there that is smarter than me.
    As available knowledge increases, it seems clear that neither Creationism, nor Evolution have a good grip on reality. It seems obvious that there has been considerable tampering with life on earth by phenomena that we do not understand. Oddly, the Bible and other ancient documents support the idea of "a war in the heavens". The worn out phrase, "Truth is stranger than fiction" might explain it all.

    This is not an attack on religions because the more ludicrous ideas in them will fall on their own, and that by the misdeeds of the believers. I wish there were another term for it besides either Atheist or Agnostic. Perhaps a "Theological Minimist", or Abrahamic Religionist?

    Here is a video for your enjoyment.
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    What about evolution should be reconsidered?
     
  5. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    8,200
    Ratings:
    +3,724
    Religion:
    None
    Rats. Beat me to it. Can I add the ???????
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    8,200
    Ratings:
    +3,724
    Religion:
    None
    Such knowledge shalt e'er denied unto thee.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    The human genome has 145 "alien" genes that can't be linked to any of our distant past ancestors; these genes are in our genome from the process of horizontal gene transfer. These 145 human genes, which nobody inherited from any distant past ancestor, might have been the result of genetic engineering by advanced extraterrestrial intelligence.

    Reference:

    Expression of multiple horizontally acquired genes is a hallmark of both vertebrate and invertebrate genomes

    Genome Biology201516:50
    Expression of multiple horizontally acquired genes is a hallmark of both vertebrate and invertebrate genomes

    • Received: 25 September 2014
    • Accepted: 4 February 2015
    • Published: 13 March 2015


     
    #7 Salvador, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  8. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    8,200
    Ratings:
    +3,724
    Religion:
    None
    Are thou a seeker after truth, or, woo woo?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    I've discovered some truths, but there are many more left out there for me to never find. ...:)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2,702
    Ratings:
    +1,304
    Religion:
    I hope there is something out there that is smarter than me.
    You sound like a Professional Geneticist. I really enjoyed A.G. Riddle's, "The Atlantis Gene" that loosely follows the same premise. I have two books left in the series.

    And perhaps the Old Testament supports it also.

    In another life, I'd have done Archeology, and Anthropology. At times it seems clear that Artifacts we find support it also. I've started over but at 72, time is short.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity holy roly poly
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    23,059
    Ratings:
    +6,686
    Religion:
    Liberal Christian almost quaker
    It is an interesting article. So now they feel that symbiosis is a contributor to evolutionary changes. What Darwin observes is that there is a mechanism to allow for speciation -- survival. That remains. What these biologists now are saying is that symbiosis (parasites) are also a major driving force in speciation. They affect fitness to survive. Note the number of bacteria we rely upon and that other creatures rely upon, and apparently our dependency upon symbiotic parasites has (according to biologists) played some visible part in evolutionary processes. Therefore its not merely the segregation of creatures which leads to differences which affect fitness and variation but also the symbiosis of creatures.
     
  12. true_religion_exists

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Messages:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    10,500
    Ratings:
    +7,018
    Religion:
    None
    With pleasure my dear.
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    10,500
    Ratings:
    +7,018
    Religion:
    None
    Considering the theory of evolution is shown to be accurate beyond doubt using several different scientific methods including genetics/dna which is accurate enough to send criminals to their death and god magic has never been validated then i suggest $11.95 for a 64 page book ranks up there with the best religious ripoffs around.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    6,017
    Ratings:
    +2,083
    Well thats a food question. I suppose if we go along foe a million years in how we understand it. Then its a false idea. Never mind that nature as a car engine is prwtty lame dont you think??
     
  16. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    The role of horizontal gene transfer needs to be explored as well as the evolutionary mechanisms of natural mutations, natural selection, gene flow, genetic drift, and genetic recombination for the emergence of genetic diversity generational changes of a population's gene pool.
     
  17. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    8,200
    Ratings:
    +3,724
    Religion:
    None
    I doubt that evolution will ever be fully understood.

    The tabloid way to express the obvious fact that there
    are always developments is to say something like
    "Scientists discover everything they thought about
    evolution was wrong".

    If there is some other reason other than playing
    tabloid, for a post about how ToE needs "rethinking"
    I sure do not see it here.
     
  18. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    Cosmic ancestry theory can often explain the transitional evolutionary changes between species that aren't well-explained by traditional Darwinian evolution.

    Viruses can insert new genes, which have never before encountered by a species, to become part of the species' genome. These transferred genes are a vital part evolution. According to Cosmic Ancestry, the horizontal transfer of genes by viruses and other means is essential for evolutionary progress.

    Three New Human Genes
    and De Novo Genes in General | What'sNEW


    Entirely novel human-specific protein-coding genes originating from ancestrally noncoding sequences have been reported by two geneticists at the University of Dublin

    Reference:


    David G. Knowles and Aoife McLysaght, "Recent de novo origin of human protein-coding genes" [abstract], doi:10.1101/gr.095026.109, Genome Research, online 2 Sep 2009.
    Discovery of novel genes..., by EurekAlert!, 1 Sep 2009.
    Genes That Make Us Human, by Elizabeth Pennisi, ScienceNOW, 1 Sep 2009.
    Three human genes evolved from junk, by Michael Le Page, NewScientist, 3 Sep 2009.
    Which Genes Make Us Human? by Alan Boyle, MSNBC, 3 Sep 2009.

    ."Analyzing available data, they identified genes that are expressed in the human species but not in chimps. They then looked for simiar sequences in other primates, finding three. The chimp and macaque (unexpressed) sequences are nearly identical to the human one, but are interrupted by frameshifting insertions and stop codons.
    Although the three human genes are known to be expressed from several lines of evidence, their functions are not definitively characterized. However one, chronic lymphocytic leukemia upregulated gene 1 (CLLU1), appears to have a role in that human disease. Its sequence among humans, compared to the matching one in chimps and macaques, is illustrated below.

    [​IMG]
    "Multiple sequence alignment of the gene sequence of the human gene CLLU1 and similar nucleotide sequences from the syntenic location in chimp and macaque. The start codon is located immediately following the first alignment gap, which was inserted for clarity. Stop codons are indicated by red boxes. The sequenced peptide identified from this locus is indicated in orange. The critical mutation that allows the production of a protein is the deletion of an A nucleotide, which is present in both chimp and macaque (indicated by an arrow). This causes a frameshift in human that results in a much longer ORF capable of producing a 121-amino acids-long protein. Both the chimp and macaque sequences have a stop codon after only 42 potential codons." © Genome Research 2009
    CLLU1 is also disabled by a matching point insertion in the gorilla and gibbon, but not orangutan, genomes. The geneticists reason, If the ancestral primate sequence was coding, then we would need to infer that an identical 1-bp insertion occurred in four lineages independently, whereas if we infer the presence of the disabler in the ancestral sequence, then we must infer two independent 1-bp deletions. The inference that the ancestral sequence was noncoding is a more parsimonious explanation of the data, even without considering that the parallel insertion of a specific base into an identical location is probably less likely than the parallel deletion of one base. ...We hypothesize that these genes have originated de novo in the human lineage, since the divergence with chimp from ancestrally noncoding sequence.

    Consider the human nucleotide sequence designated CLLU1, 121 codons in length. A codon, three nucleotides, may encode any of 20 amino acids, or a stop. (But this sequence is a gene, an open reading frame with no stops.)
    Assume that the protein encoded by this nucleotide sequence needs ~25%, or 30, of its codons exactly right. In other words, only 1 out of 21 codons can occupy each of those 30 positions. The chance that 30 random codons will match this sequence in one trial can be estimated as

    (1/21)^30 = ~10^-40
    Assume that the remaining 91 codons in this sequence may vary widely, encoding any of 10 of life's 20 amino acids, but no stops. In other words, 10 out of 21 codons can occupy each of those 91 codon positions. The chance that 91 random codons will satisfy these criteria in one trial is approximately

    (10/21)^91 = ~10^-30

    Combining these assumptions, the chance that a given sequence of 121 random codons will constitute a working version of this gene is on the order of

    10^(-40-30) = 10^-70 ..."

    (This method copies Chandra Wickramasinghe's in The Legacy of Fred Hoyle, reviewed 2005.)

    Reference: Metazoan Genes Older Than Metazoa?, 25 Oct 1996.

    "If a new genetic program arrives by the strong panspermia process, intervening (ancestral) species should possess either nearly identical versions of it ...or nothing similar.."
    Reference: New genetic programs in Darwinism and strong panspermia, 7 Apr 2002.
    .At least some of the silent DNA is for future use ."]Reference: Why Sexual Reproduction?, first posted May 1996.
    "Point mutations and other simple mechanisms can switch existing programs off and on."
    Reference: Testing Darwinism versus Cosmic Ancestry, 24 Nov 2002
    "This process would ...depend on sophisticated software management that can recognize an installed program."
    Reference: Duplication Makes A New Primate Gene, 21 Feb 2005.
    "New genetic programs will be continually offered for testing."
    Reference: How is it Possible?, first posted May 1996.
     
    #18 Salvador, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  19. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    8,200
    Ratings:
    +3,724
    Religion:
    None
    I will assume this is for the potentiated lurkarians,
    as it is not really about what I said.
     
  20. Salvador

    Salvador Conscious Being

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,647
    Ratings:
    +792
    Religion:
    Matrixism and Swedenborgianism
    Oh...Ok...I just thought I'd elaborate in detail what updates I believe need to be made with regards to the Darwinian Model of evolution.
     
Loading...