Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

[Neb]

The Divine Standard Unfurled : Genealogy of Baha'u'llah

You can make a link from King David to Bahaullah, but that’s all you can do, but if you argue that Bahaullah was mentioned or came from the bible because you use King David as your reference or a source of bahaullah’s genealogy then who are you fooling here? Yourself!

 

[Neb]

No, it does not apply to Christ. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so Jesus could not be out of the stock of Jesse.

“In Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, it is said: “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-12.html.utf8?query=Jesse&action=highlight#gr1

“And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.” –Isaiah 11:1

This verse is NOT about or it does NOT refer to Baha’u’llah as the Messiah but to Christ as the Messiah and it happened during Christ earthly ministry.

John 14:26 is about Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was the Comforter that the Father sent in Jesus' name. Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit, taught all things, and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.

bahaullah NOT in the bible at all.

 

[Neb]

The Divine Standard Unfurled : Genealogy of Baha'u'llah

The word "ullah" in baha-ullah or "allah", both in Arabic, was never in the bible or it does NOT translate into the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible, like Elohim, Jehovah, or Yahweh. IOW, the god of the shiite/baha'i faith and the sunni/muslim, aka, "ullah/allah" is NOT the same as the "TRUE GOD" of the Bible. There is no similarity, WHATSOEVER, between these two beliefs.

Christ came from the "TRUE GOD" and was prophesied in the Bible, as the “TRUE MESSIAH”, while Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, aka, Baha’u’llah, a Persian Shi'ite and Muhammad, a Sunni?, both came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac and are NOT or were NOT mentioned or prophesied at all in the bible as both prophets or messiah of the “TRUE GOD” of the Bible.

So, the words “the glory of God/ Elohim, Jehovah, or Yahweh” in the Bible is NOT in any way the same, in meaning, as “Bahaullah” or “the glory of allah” in Arabic. Again, there is no similarity, whatsoever, between these two beliefs.

This is the truth if one really studies the Bible, the inerrant word of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can make a link from King David to Bahaullah, but that’s all you can do, but if you argue that Bahaullah was mentioned or came from the bible because you use King David as your reference or a source of bahaullah’s genealogy then who are you fooling here? Yourself!

You are the one fooling yourself. The Divine Standard has been unfurled. Jesus is not coming back, ever.

 

[Trailblazer]

“And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.” –Isaiah 11:1

This verse is NOT about or it does NOT refer to Baha’u’llah as the Messiah but to Christ as the Messiah and it happened during Christ earthly ministry.

No, it does not refer to Christ because Christ was not out of the stock of Jesse since He has no human father. He was the Son of God.

“This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63

bahaullah NOT in the bible at all.

Baha'u'llah was prophesied throughout the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the truth if one really studies the Bible, the inerrant word of God.

If you want the truth you need to study the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the inerrant word of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Noah and Adam were not fictional. No, I do not think that Baha'u'llah was descended from them, but I am no genealogist

If you believe they weren't fictional, then, if the Bible is correct, we are all descended from them. So now... do you believe what the Bible says about them?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you believe they weren't fictional, then, if the Bible is correct, we are all descended from them. So now... do you believe what the Bible says about them?

Yes, I believe what the Bible says about them. I also believe what Baha'u'llah said about them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no way of knowing if Matthew got his facts straight, embellished the story, or plain out made stuff up. As such, there is no point conjecturing about it.

Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not does not matter to me. The main thing that matters that Christians got wrong is that Jesus ascended into the sky on a cloud and that Jesus will return as he left. Christians who believe this are all waiting for Jesus to return and fix things that God has entrusted humans to fix. That is why it is a travesty of astronomic proportions. The Christians are in effect holding back the progress of humanity with their ridiculous belief about Jesus returning.

All the prophecies have been fulfilled but they will never stop waiting for Jesus. The obvious reason they want Jesus to return and cannot believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ is because they are attached to the same man Jesus and they believe they are going to get something for themselves when Jesus returns and everyone else will just go to hell. How absolutely selfish.

Nothing in the world gets fixed while Christians wait for something that is never going to happen. A Christian I know said to me there is no point doing anything about social and economic injustices in the world because "Jesus is coming and nothing will ever change until Jesus comes." Jesus will then wave a magic wand and make the world anew. This is really convenient for Christians because that means they do not have to do anything but sit around enjoying themselves and wait for Jesus to return.

These Christians are living in a fantasy! Why doesn't anyone even care? Do you watch world news? The world is crumbling before our very face and all Christians can do is wait for Jesus.

Meanwhile, Baha'u'llah revealed a plan that if followed could fix what is wrong in the world and we get guff for our religion. This is unjust.

Here you are:
The Good News of the Gospel.
#212 ronandcarol, Today at 2:31 P

You can choose between this and the Baha'i Faith, or choose neither one.

I am tired of pretending. The return of Jesus on a cloud from the sky is an untenable belief to any rational person. In case you missed this on the other thread:

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no way of knowing if Matthew got his facts straight, embellished the story, or plain out made stuff up. As such, there is no point conjecturing about it.

Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not does not matter to me. The main thing that matters that Christians got wrong is that Jesus ascended into the sky on a cloud and that Jesus will return as he left. Christians who believe this are all waiting for Jesus to return and fix things that God has entrusted humans to fix. That is why it is a travesty of astronomic proportions. The Christians are in effect holding back the progress of humanity with their ridiculous belief about Jesus returning.

All the prophecies have been fulfilled but they will never stop waiting for Jesus. The obvious reason they want Jesus to return and cannot believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ is because they are attached to the same man Jesus and they believe they are going to get something for themselves when Jesus returns and everyone else will just go to hell. How absolutely selfish.

Nothing in the world gets fixed while Christians wait for something that is never going to happen. A Christian I know said to me there is no point doing anything about social and economic injustices in the world because "Jesus is coming and nothing will ever change until Jesus comes." Jesus will then wave a magic wand and make the world anew. This is really convenient for Christians because that means they do not have to do anything but sit around enjoying themselves and wait for Jesus to return.

These Christians are living in a fantasy! Why doesn't anyone even care? Do you watch world news? The world is crumbling before our very face and all Christians can do is wait for Jesus.

Meanwhile, Baha'u'llah revealed a plan that if followed could fix what is wrong in the world and we get guff for our religion. This is unjust.

Here you are:
The Good News of the Gospel.
#212 ronandcarol, Today at 2:31 P

You can choose between this and the Baha'i Faith, or choose neither one.

I am tired of pretending. The return of Jesus on a cloud from the sky is an untenable belief to any rational person. In case you missed this on the other thread:

“Christians (say they) believe in what the NT teaches” when in fact it does not teach what they believe it teaches..." That's what you said. So in the gospel story in Matthew that tells of the events in the life of Jesus, and includes the things that happened after he was crucified... What does the NT teach? Baha'u'llah's interpretation doesn't matter... yet. What did the writer try to convey?

You say, "Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not does not matter to me." But that's what this thread is all about. So the very first thing I'd like to know from you is when you read in Matthew, or any of the gospels, the post crucifixion events, do the writers present them as if they really happened?

 

[CG Didymus]

Admittedly we would need genealogical records or DNA to prove the genealogy, do we have those for Jesus?
No, I did not think so. Since all we have is what the Bible says, Jesus and Baha’u’llah are on equal footing.

Fair enough, but as I already told you a long time ago, Baha’is do not claim that the genealogy of Baha’u’llah proves He was the Messiah. Moreover, there is no proof of that, only evidence.

Genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus’ claimed identity as Messiah because millions of others could have made exactly the same genealogical claims even if they were verifiably true.

The upshot is that the Bible does not prove anything about genealogy by rattling off a bunch of verses. None of that can be verified. Thanks for pointing this out. I can use this next time I get into it with a Christian.

I am finished talking about genealogy right now.

The word was mistranslated from Persian into English because it should have read “this Great Age.” I learned about that from a Baha’i who is proficient in both languages. That one word has caused a lot of confusion but we now know what happened. Worldwide peace, security and harmony will be established in this Great Age, often referred to by Jews as the Messianic Age. The progress made so far will continue until all the nations are one family. All this will happen within the present universal cycle of religion which will last no less than 500,000 years.

WWI and WWI were predicted by Baha’u’llah and they were the result of the kings and rulers rejecting the message of Baha’u’llah.

KAISER WILHELM I

O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

Bahaullah never said anything about a date when things would improve. In fact, He indicated that it will be a very long time.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

I cannot even object to something unless I know the specific allegation. You are the one making the assertion that I have been disingenuous so you are responsible for providing the evidence of such. Otherwise all you have is a personal opinion that I am being disingenuous.

For example, you said “but an argument is disingenuous if it deliberately pretends that perfectly obvious contrary evidence doesn't exist.”

Show me where I pretended that contrary evidence does not exist. Quite the contrary, when you have presented contrary evidence I have acknowledged it. But that does not mean I have to agree with you.

You are just as free to present evidence against the Baha’i Faith as I am free to present evidence for it, so what’s the problem? Everyone can look at what we post and evaluate that evidence independently.

"Admittedly we would need genealogical records or DNA to prove the genealogy..." So there is no genealogical record or DNA? Then what was that "genealogical" record that you and Tony keep posting? "Everyone can look at what we post and evaluate that evidence independently"? Yeah, I guess I have to evaluate that genealogical record as completely made up fiction.

 

[Trailblazer]

“Christians (say they) believe in what the NT teaches” when in fact it does not teach what they believe it teaches..." That's what you said. So in the gospel story in Matthew that tells of the events in the life of Jesus, and includes the things that happened after he was crucified... What does the NT teach? Baha'u'llah's interpretation doesn't matter... yet. What did the writer try to convey?

You say, "Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not does not matter to me." But that's what this thread is all about. So the very first thing I'd like to know from you is when you read in Matthew, or any of the gospels, the post crucifixion events, do the writers present them as if they really happened?

I am sorry but I cannot give my opinion on what I have not read. Like I said, it really does not matter to me because I have my own religion. So maybe I should not be on this thread. From what I have read, the writers present them as if they happened, but what does that prove?

 

[Trailblazer]

"Admittedly we would need genealogical records or DNA to prove the genealogy..." So there is no genealogical record or DNA? Then what was that "genealogical" record that you and Tony keep posting? "Everyone can look at what we post and evaluate that evidence independently"? Yeah, I guess I have to evaluate that genealogical record as completely made up fiction.

I assume someone did the genealogy but how could I prove that?
It really does not matter to me because I did not need it as proof of anything. If people care they can look into it further.

 

[Neb]

If you want the truth you need to study the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the inerrant word of God.

WARNING TO READERS OF THIS THREAD: DO NOT BE MISLED BY SEMANTICS. The errant word of ullah is NOT the same as the inerrant word of God in the Bible. People should be aware that ullah/allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible.

 

[Neb]

No, it does not refer to Christ because Christ was not out of the stock of Jesse since He has no human father. He was the Son of God.

“This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63

Baha'u'llah was prophesied throughout the Bible.

WARNING TO READERS OF THIS THREAD: DO NOT BE MISLED BY SEMANTICS. The errant word of ullah/bahaullah is NOT the same as the inerrant word of God in the Bible. People should be aware that baha-ullah/allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible.

 

[Neb]

You are the one fooling yourself. The Divine Standard has been unfurled. Jesus is not coming back, ever.

Base on your religion "Jesus is not coming back, ever." and this is what we called antichrist.
1Jn 2:22 "Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son"

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, I believe what the Bible says about them. I also believe what Baha'u'llah said about them.

The Bible says Adam was the first man, and Noah survived a flood that killed everybody except Noah and his family. What does Baha'u'llah say about them?

 

[CG Didymus]

I assume someone did the genealogy but how could I prove that?
It really does not matter to me because I did not need it as proof of anything. If people care they can look into it further.

You don't have to prove it. How did they prove it? Don't they list their sources?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, it does not apply to Christ. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so Jesus could not be out of the stock of Jesse.

“In Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, it is said: “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63

John 14:26 is about Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was the Comforter that the Father sent in Jesus' name. Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit, taught all things, and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.

In a thread where the resurrection and especially the ascension of Jesus is questioned because it is "unscientific", why do Baha'i think that Mary got pregnant by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Trailblazer]

WARNING TO READERS OF THIS THREAD: DO NOT BE MISLED BY SEMANTICS. The errant word of ullah is NOT the same as the inerrant word of God in the Bible. People should be aware that ullah/allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible.

People should be aware that there is a lot of truth in the Bible but there is also a lot of errancy, since it was written by men.

There is no errancy in the Writings of Baha'u'llah since He wrote His own scriptures and Baha'u'llah is inerrant.