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Featured Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No - that is incorrect - there are only two ways to verfiy a genealogical connection - either we have a complete and verifiably documented genealogical record (we certainly do not have this for Baha'u'llah and even if we did it would not be 100% proof positive because there could have been illegitimate liaisons giving rise to lineages that are documented as natural, biological descendants but in fact are not - it is very likely that this has happened at least once in the lineage of the British Monarchy, for example, and led eventually to the succession of the Hanoverian monarchs of whom Baha'u'llah's favourite, Victoria was the last - ironically Victoria's popularity waned considerably in Britain following her mistreatment of Lady Flora Hastings - whose family actually had a more direct but less well-known genealogical claim to the English throne), or we could have DNA matching between the ancient ancestor and the modern descendants - which we certainly do not have. There is no other way to verify a genealogical connection and neither of these are even possible in this case.

    No - I can't. Scientifically, there is an approximately 80% chance that Baha'u'llah was related to any individual who was (a) alive in the middle east in 1000BC and (b) whose genetic lineage has survived to the present. There is a corresponding 20% chance that he was not descended from any particular individual who was (a) alive in the middle east in 1000BC and (b) whose genetic lineage has survived...genetic lineage is irrelevant because it is a fact that about four-fifths of the population of Persia were almost certainly descended from the same individual as Baha'u'llah - regardless of whether that ancestor was King David or some entirely unrecorded and unremembered person who happened to be alive at the same time. Genealogy is irrelevant to Baha'u'llah's claimed identity as Messiah because millions of others could have made exactly the same genealogical claims even if they were verifiably true.

    Well obviously Abdu'l Baha was wrong - first off he discredits the Christian claims of genealogical descent from David's line on the grounds that Jesus was not Joseph's natural son - and entirely overlooks the fact that this objection is already covered in the Christian account by having Mary also descended from the Davidic line. He then goes on to argue that the worldwide peace, security and harmony (etc.) that had not emerged in the Christian "cycle" was already in evidence in the world during the early part of the Baha'i cycle..."this Great Century". He wrote this in 1908 confidently predicting that the progress made so far would continue until all the nations were one family...adding also that the Jews would return to Palestine and "day by day" would increase until all Palestine would be their home (presumably with each one residing in peace and security under their vines and fig trees just as the Prophets he referenced had predicted)...

    So lets see how all that turned out in the intervening "great century" that he had such high hopes for...

    ...oh Yes - two world wars - millions of war casualties, refugees, an Israel set up by political intrigue and supported by corrupt government and racist politics - car bombs, 911, starvation, malnutrition, diseases on global pandemic scales...

    ...not much evidence on the Baha'u'llah for Messiah campaign side as far as I can see - just more of the same only worse - and especially so in the immediate few decades following Abdu'l Baha's hopeful predictions.

    Of course I cannot actually prove that Baha'u'llah was not descended from King David - but I can't prove he wasn't descended from Herod the Great, Caligula or Attila the Hun either - and neither can you.

    I'm leaving the rest - you can take my remarks personally if you wish, but an argument is disingenuous if it deliberately pretends that perfectly obvious contrary evidence doesn't exist. I was perhaps not careful enough to point out that I don't blame you individually for this - but in the end - even according to Baha'iism, we each have an individual responsibility to investigate the truth independently. Its up to each one to decide best how to address that for themselves but in an open debate forum, when I see an obviously disingenuous argument, I will call it - for the sake of anyone who in their own investigation might not have spotted it. Of course I might be mistaken and you are quite welcome to object - with evidence - if that appears to be so.
     
    #1281 siti, Feb 28, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Admittedly we would need genealogical records or DNA to prove the genealogy, do we have those for Jesus?
    No, I did not think so. Since all we have is what the Bible says, Jesus and Baha’u’llah are on equal footing.
    Fair enough, but as I already told you a long time ago, Baha’is do not claim that the genealogy of Baha’u’llah proves He was the Messiah. Moreover, there is no proof of that, only evidence.

    Genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus’ claimed identity as Messiah because millions of others could have made exactly the same genealogical claims even if they were verifiably true.

    The upshot is that the Bible does not prove anything about genealogy by rattling off a bunch of verses. None of that can be verified. Thanks for pointing this out. I can use this next time I get into it with a Christian.

    I am finished talking about genealogy right now.
    The word was mistranslated from Persian into English because it should have read “this Great Age.” I learned about that from a Baha’i who is proficient in both languages. That one word has caused a lot of confusion but we now know what happened. Worldwide peace, security and harmony will be established in this Great Age, often referred to by Jews as the Messianic Age. The progress made so far will continue until all the nations are one family. All this will happen within the present universal cycle of religion which will last no less than 500,000 years.
    WWI and WWI were predicted by Baha’u’llah and they were the result of the kings and rulers rejecting the message of Baha’u’llah.

    KAISER WILHELM I

    O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory. Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39


    Bahaullah never said anything about a date when things would improve. In fact, He indicated that it will be a very long time.

    “The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
    I cannot even object to something unless I know the specific allegation. You are the one making the assertion that I have been disingenuous so you are responsible for providing the evidence of such. Otherwise all you have is a personal opinion that I am being disingenuous.

    For example, you said “but an argument is disingenuous if it deliberately pretends that perfectly obvious contrary evidence doesn't exist.”

    Show me where I pretended that contrary evidence does not exist. Quite the contrary, when you have presented contrary evidence I have acknowledged it. But that does not mean I have to agree with you.

    You are just as free to present evidence against the Baha’i Faith as I am free to present evidence for it, so what’s the problem? Everyone can look at what we post and evaluate that evidence independently.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah was prophesied in the Bible. :D
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah did not come from Ismael.
    Baha'u'llah was prophesied in the Bible.

    You have no more proof if the lineage of Christ than we have proof of the lineage of Baha'u'llah. All you have is what the Bible says, but the Bible says that Baha'u'llah was descended from David through Jesse.
    12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH
     
  5. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Mathew 1:5 and Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
    Mt 1:6 and Jesse begat David the king. And David begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uriah;
    Mt 1:7 and Solomon begat Rehoboam; and Rehoboam begat Abijah; and Abijah begat Asa;
    Mt 1:8 and Asa begat Jehoshaphat; and Jehoshaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Uzziah;
    Mt 1:9 and Uzziah begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and Ahaz begat Hezekiah;
    Mt 1:10 and Hezekiah begat Manasseh; and Manasseh begat Amon; and Amon begat Josiah;
    Mt 1:11 and Josiah begat Jechoniah and his brethren, at the time of the carrying away to Babylon.
    Mt 1:12 And after the carrying away to Babylon, Jechoniah begat Shealtiel; and Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel;
    Mt 1:13 and Zerubbabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    Mt 1:14 and Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
    Mt 1:15 and Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    Mt 1:16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    see if you can find baha'u'llah's name here. What you have is a made-up or mythical genealogy of baha'u'llah.
    Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha’u’llah came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac.

    “And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.”Isaiah 11:1

    This verse is NOT about or it does NOT refer to Baha’u’llah as the Messiah but to Christ as the Messiah and it happened during Christ earthly ministry.

    Read verse 2 of Isaiah 11.

    “And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.”Isaiah 11:2

    John the Baptist, the last prophet of God from the OT testified to this in John 1:32-33

    “And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him.” - “And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit.” -John 1:32-33

    “the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit”, John announced that Jesus would impart the Holy Spirit to his followers and this occurred in Acts chapter 2 and this is what the Lord Jesus was saying in John 14:26 about the “COMFORTER”

    “But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.”John 14:26

    Again, there is NO room for Baha’u’llah here.
     
  6. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Never! If you can find Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí, a Persian Shi'ite, aka, baha’u’llah who came from Ishmael and NOT from Isaac then show me the proof.
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    This is from Revelation 9... Who do Baha'i say is prophesied in these verses?

    1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

    7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
    If you answered Muhammad, you'd be right. Does anyone other than Baha'is believe it? I highly doubt it. So, absolutely for sure, you believe Baha'u'llah is prophesied in the Bible. Just like Baha'is believe these verses refer to Muhammad. They are just words with multiple meanings... depending on what you want them to say or prove.

     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Ok, what does the NT teach in these verses from Matthew 26-28? What did Christians get wrong? Did Matthew get his facts right, or did he embellish the story, or plain out make stuff up? Why do Baha'is think that suddenly the story becomes symbolic once the writer starts talking about the empty tomb?

    26:57Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

    59The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

    Finally two came forward 61and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’ ”

    62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63But Jesus remained silent.

    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

    64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

    65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?”

    “He is worthy of death,” they answered...

    27:1Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

    3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

    ...11Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

    “You have said so,” Jesus replied.

    12When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. 13Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” 14But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor...

    Then they led him away to crucify him.

    32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews...

    50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection ande went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

    54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

    ...57As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away...

    62The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63“Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

    65“Take a guard,” Pilate answered. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.” 66So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard...

    28:1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

    2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

    5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not apply to Christ. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, so Jesus could not be out of the stock of Jesse.

    “In Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, it is said: “And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

    This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 62-63

    John 14:26 is about Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was the Comforter that the Father sent in Jesus' name. Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit, taught all things, and brought to remembrance what Jesus had said.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    So why do you say that they refer to Muhammad?

    Bahais are free to interpret the Bible just like anyone else but we do not pretend to know what it means unless it has been explained by Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha.

    From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

    Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
    (31 January 1955 to an individual believer)
    The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

    For example, these verses have been interpreted by Abdu'l-Baha, so we know what they mean, if we are Baha'is:

    “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1–3)

    Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

    “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15)

    The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of 57 the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor. “ Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I have no way of knowing if Matthew got his facts straight, embellished the story, or plain out made stuff up. As such, there is no point conjecturing about it.

    Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not does not matter to me. The main thing that matters that Christians got wrong is that Jesus ascended into the sky on a cloud and that Jesus will return as he left. Christians who believe this are all waiting for Jesus to return and fix things that God has entrusted humans to fix. That is why it is a travesty of astronomic proportions. The Christians are in effect holding back the progress of humanity with their ridiculous belief about Jesus returning.

    All the prophecies have been fulfilled but they will never stop waiting for Jesus. The obvious reason they want Jesus to return and cannot believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ is because they are attached to the same man Jesus and they believe they are going to get something for themselves when Jesus returns and everyone else will just go to hell. How absolutely selfish.

    Nothing in the world gets fixed while Christians wait for something that is never going to happen. A Christian I know said to me there is no point doing anything about social and economic injustices in the world because "Jesus is coming and nothing will ever change until Jesus comes." Jesus will then wave a magic wand and make the world anew. This is really convenient for Christians because that means they do not have to do anything but sit around enjoying themselves and wait for Jesus to return.

    These Christians are living in a fantasy! :eek: Why doesn't anyone even care? Do you watch world news? The world is crumbling before our very face and all Christians can do is wait for Jesus. :rolleyes:

    Meanwhile, Baha'u'llah revealed a plan that if followed could fix what is wrong in the world and we get guff for our religion. This is unjust. :(

    Here you are:
    The Good News of the Gospel.
    #212 ronandcarol, Today at 2:31 P

    You can choose between this and the Baha'i Faith, or choose neither one. ;)

    I am tired of pretending. The return of Jesus on a cloud from the sky is an untenable belief to any rational person. In case you missed this on the other thread:

     
  13. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I should think so!

    No they weren't - we have discussed this all at great length in the "Great Beings" thread last year. At best Baha'u'llah predicted military defeat for Germany in a war (or two) - but of course the prediction was so vague it could have been simply predicting a continuation of the enmity between France and Germany over western Rhineland sovereignty that had continued from the middle ages through to the 19th century. There were very popular German songs and poetry written about the blood spilled in defence of the Rhine as German territory - before Baha'u'llah said anything about it. He could have been writing about things that had already happened rather than prophecy. Exactly what Baha'u'llah was referring to is unclear.

    I have tried to make it clear that the disingenuous accusation was not aimed at you personally - but you are repeating a claim (about Baha'u'llah's genealogy) that was suggested by Abdu'l Baha and supported by Shoghi Effendi. Both of them must have known (better than anyone else) that these claims were not supported by any genuine evidence - their claims and their arguments in support of the genealogical claim to Messianic credibility were disingenuous - they knew they lacked evidence and yet presented the claim as if it were established fact. That is disingenuous. You were simply repeating their disingenuous claim. I hope that is clear now.
     
    #1293 siti, Mar 1, 2018
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    The point of the Tablet was not to be a prophecy. What he said about the banks of the Rhine was just a warning of what would happen if the king did not heed His call. Baha’u’llahwas in no way trying to prove He had prophetic powers, even though He did. However, in retrospect, we know it refers to WWI and WWII, so we can assume that Baha’u’llah knew that there would be two world wars.

    As I said, I am done talking about genealogy. :)
     
  15. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    No we do not know that - why the Rhine? Why not the Somme or Ypres? Why not Gallipoli? Why not Dresden or London? Why not Hiroshima or Nagasaki? He commented on the Rhine because it was a well known 19th century bone of contention between France and Germany (about which he was reasonably well-informed being, as he was, the brother-in-law of the secretary to the Russian ambassador - whose house he lived in for a while in Tehran). Absolutely nothing to do with any foreknowledge of 20th century world wars - which even Abdu'l Baha in 1908 signally failed to anticipate - as I pointed out in an earlier post - they were fully anticipating the beginning of an era of unprecedented peace - not global conflict - and a completely vague proclamation about blood on the banks of the Rhine (which he probably got from the words of the German National Anthem anyway) certainly do not add up to divinely inspired foreknowledge of two global conflicts.

    I know you said you were done with genealogy - your 'prophet' has no genealogical evidence to support his Messianic status. So now - in time honored Baha'i tradition - you have changed the subject to prophecy - and that too fails miserably as evidence for Baha'u'llah's Messianic status.

    So Baha'u'llah is neither Messiah nor prophet. Where to next?
     
    #1295 siti, Mar 1, 2018
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    You were the one who brought up the world wars, not me...
    siti said:
    ...oh Yes - two world wars - millions of war casualties, refugees, an Israel set up by political intrigue and supported by corrupt government and racist politics - car bombs, 911, starvation, malnutrition, diseases on global pandemic scales...

    Trailblazer said: WWI and WWI were predicted by Baha’u’llah and they were the result of the kings and rulers rejecting the message of Baha’u’llah.

    Time honored tradition of the Baha'is? Where did I ever say any predictions Baha'ullah made are proof of Prophethood? Nowhere. I said they were just warnings, not offered as proof of Prophethood. That is obvious, given the context of the Tablet.
    Baha'u'llah was the Messiah and a Prophet... That is obvious by reading His Writings. :rolleyes:

    For anyone who really wants to know who Baha'u'llah was, Baha'u'llah tells them how to determine that:

    “Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
     
  17. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    I brought it up because you were claiming Abd'ul Baha's interpretation of Isaiah 11 was evidence of Baha'u'llah's Messiahship...I pointed out that he also confidently predicted that peace would break out all over the world but just 6 years later the world erupted into the biggest war ever...Abdu'l Baha was an absolutely hopeless prophet - you countered by suggesting that Baha'u'llah's vague comment on the 19th century political situation in Europe was actually a prediction (your word not mine) of two world wars. Tommyrot! Baha'u'llah had no more idea about two world wars than our cat can predict who will win the world cup in Moscow later this year. (Actually she thinks England have a genuine chance - imagine that!)
     
    #1297 siti, Mar 1, 2018
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Show me where I ever said that was evidence of Baha'u'llah's Messiahship. I never said that. I just posted it to Neb because he kept insisting the Baha'u'llah was descended from Ishmael. NOT being descended from Ishmael is not evidence that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah. Lots of people are not descended from Ishmael and they are not the Messiah. I do not offer such things as evidence. Never once in the five years of my talking to people on forums about evidence for Baha'ullah did I ever mention genealogy. :rolleyes:
    Abdu'l-Baha was not a prophet. Abdu'l-Baha said in Persian that it would happen in this Age, and it will. It was incorrectly translated to say Century so people thought it meant before the year 2000. None of this has anything to do with Baha'u'llah, so why throw in the red herring?
    How do you know what Baha'u'llah knew? Do you read minds? Of course He knew that there would be two world wars. He was a Prophet. :D
     
  19. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    OK - here (with my bold) is what you wrote - and what I was responding to...

    Abdu'l Baha was badly mistaken about almost every aspect in his interpretation of Isaiah 11 as a prophecy that was already in the process of fulfillment. If he got it wrong on world peace, religious harmony, and that weird Zionist bit at the end...how can you have any confidence in the rest of it?

    I didn't, you did.

    No - books! History books in particular. You should try it - Baha'u'llah's writings make much more sense when you have a clearer idea of what he could have known and who he was connected to. If you simply swallow the old Baha'i mythology about him being uneducated and isolated from European political history then you'd be forgiven for believing he must have been divinely inspired, but if you look a bit deeper, he wrote nothing he couldn't have got from reading books and contact with the nobles, sages and holy men that he grew up with and spent most of his time conversing with. There is no mystery here. And no messiah either.
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    But nowhere in those quotes did I say that genealogy is evidence of Baha'u'llah's Messiahship. I said “this is about who could be the Messiah and sit on the throne of David.” In other words, as I said before, the genealogy does not rule out Baha’u’llah as the Messiah, since He was descended from David, which is a Messiah requirement for both Jews and Christians.
    Where specifically did he get it wrong?
    It is a logical fallacy to say that just because He could have known from sources other than God (such as books) that He did not know from God. And sure, while in prison and exile for 30 years, he had a free pass to go out and study history in the local library – get real.

    Moreover, there was no reason to think there would be two world wars back in 1870 when Germany was at the height of her glory, so banks of the Rhine was not just a lucky guess based upon past history.

    Why is it Baha’i mythology that Baha’u’llah was not educated beyond a very basic level? We are not talking about the Bible now. This is fairly recent history.

    Moreover, and this was my point, you cannot know how He knew because you are not Him. Unless you can prove how He knew, it is simply conjecture on your part. I do not say that I know, I say I believe. There is a big difference between the two.
     
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