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Featured Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    With all due respect, I was never a Christian before I became a Baha'i, so I do not know the Bible very well. I only know what I have learned from posting to Christians on forums and looking up many chapters and verses on the internet. Logically speaking, since Christians cannot even agree among themselves what the verses mean, it is obvious that there is no clear meaning of the verses.

    God never intended the Bible to be fully understood until the time of the end:
    Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Although I do not think they did it deliberately, the Church deceived Christians and led them astray. The early Church fathers simply interpreted the Bible the way they did because they could not understand it. As Daniel said in Chapter 12:9 “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”

    The “unsealing” was not supposed to take place until the time of the end: Daniel 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

    The 2,300 years was up in 1844 and the book was unsealed. There is a starting point from which the waiting in Dan 12:12 began, so if one knows how to do the math, the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days comes out to the exact year the Bab came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah. This and the math is explained by Abdu’l-Baha in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL
     
  2. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect - whether you know the Bible very well or not you can't have both of these:

    This is precisely the kind of Baha'i double-talk I've been complaining about in this and the "Great Beings" thread.

    Anyway, we are going off topic again - the question was about the resurrection being physical or spiritual and my argument in the post you are responding to was that the early Christians certainly seemed to think it was something that had already happened by Pentecost 33 CE...i.e. that "this Jesus God hath raised up" - already by Pentecost of 33 CE - and that it was this resurrected Jesus that sent the promised "Comforter" - the Holy Spirit - right then in 33 CE, just weeks after Jesus had died and rose again. That is very clearly what the writer of Acts meant Peter to indicate in Acts of the Apostles 2 isn't it?
     
    #262 siti, Jan 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    To say it is not very ambiguous would not be true, but the verses quoted don't answer everything and Christians have explained as alternative meaning. If verses say "touch me and see I have flesh and bone", then your verses can't be right as interpreted by the Baha'is. But the worst interpretation is Abdu'l Baha's, something about after three days they started living the life that Jesus taught and thus brought life back to the dead religion of Jesus? That does not even fit the gospel stories. They are not presented as symbolic. I think it is much more likely that they are totally false, then written in some mystic symbolic language.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that Abdu'l Baha's interpretation would not be on topic? Supposedly, it is the only correct interpretation of the event. Present it here and let's see how it fits. I think it makes the gospel stories ridiculous.
     
  5. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I felt sorry that Baha’is were ‘misguided’ and then became ‘misguided’ myself. That was 40 years ago!
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Nothing in these verses says anything about a physically real body... The angels asked the disciples why they were looking up into the sky as the Spirit of Jesus ascended. The angels knew that the same Spirit of Jesus would return in like manner as it had come down the first time. That is why they said in wonderment" "why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Baha'u'llah was the same Spirit of Jesus.

    It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, and that is what the angels saw in Acts 1:10-11. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits. Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

    If God intended the Bible to say that Jesus would return then why didn’t Jesus say He would return? Jesus never said He would return, never. He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, 11). He said you would see the Son of man come down from the clouds of heaven; He did not say “you will see me come down from the clouds of heaven.” Jesus and Baha'u'llah were both designated as the Son of man because they were the same Spirit of God.

    All that said, if Christians want to continue waiting for the same Jesus to return there is nothing to stop them from doing so. I just think it might be prudent if they at least looked at all the OT and NT prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Since they were fulfilled by Baha'ullah, they cannot also be fulfilled by Jesus. The prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night.
     
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  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Really to us as Baha’is it’s wholly unimportant. Christ taught the message of love and it is that message of love which is most important.

    There are a lot of issues where we see things differently but they’re really unimportant compared to getting along. Christians I consider good, noble and upright people who I’m always honoured to host. To me their beliefs don’t change my attitude of love for them.
     
  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    My understanding is Lazarus was spiritually not physically dead.

    From Abdu’l- Baha He mentions Lazarus so this is more official.

    ...holding to literal interpretation and visible fulfillment of the text of the Holy Books is simply imitation of ancestral forms and beliefs; for when we perceive the reality of Christ, these texts and statements become clear and perfectly reconcilable with each other. Unless we perceive reality, we cannot understand the meanings of the Holy Books, for these meanings are symbolical and spiritual—such as, for instance, the raising of Lazarus, which has spiritual interpretation. (PUP)

    I believe the writers of the Bible were inspired to write the way they did. I think they knew at the time that these things all had spiritual meanings but over 2,000 years we have lost just so much spirituality and become so materialistic that we find it easier to interpret everything literally.

    A spiritual person would interpret things differently to a literalist. But at that time I believe they knew the inner spiritual definitions. It was a no brainer to them then but to us in this materialistic age we struggle with spiritual concepts.

    Just my humble opinion.
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why can't I have both of these?
    I know what the early Christians thought about the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost:
    Acts 2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    However, that does not mean that the Comforter and the Spirit of truth referenced in John was the same Holy Spirit sent at Pentecost. An omnipotent God can send the Holy Spirit as many times as He wants to and to whomever He wants to.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Oh I see... You were a Christian before you were a Baha'i. :D
    It happens. ;)
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Maybe they did, but I have also heard that they wrote what they did because they had an agenda.

    But nobody really knows what really happened.
     
  12. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    No, I was talking about making it a thread about proof of the Baha'i Faith, lets discuss this event and answers given since it happened and lets us each make an informed decision.

    Abdulbaha also said there can be many spiritual stories contained within scripture, He usually gave the most relevant explanation for the audience it was delivered to. He told us to meditate to discover the others possible meanings.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

    Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
    Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ’s coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: “For I came down from heaven”; and also in verse 42 we find: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

    Observe that it is said, “The Son of man is in heaven,” while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.

    Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.

    Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

    Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 103-105
     
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Bahai needs to somehow push a square peg into a round hole to achieve it's aim of showing that Bahai is at the top of the religious pyramid, and that all should forsake past faiths for the true way....... the Bahai way!

    Such contrivance! :)
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Which simply means that you do not accept the fundamental Creed of Christianity, but have to somehow build a foundation for Christians to go forward to ..... Bahai.

    'We do........ but we don't really' looks like a contrived but necessary approach to further the Bahai 'sell'.
    :shrug:

    If the cap fits.....................
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    What we have to filter through is why was it needed in AD325 for the Church to set Doctrine. It is obvious there were many views.

    Also remember it could be Christianity entered winter early because these doctrine would stifle free thought on these passages.

    Have a look at this as just one idea.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism

    Regards Tony
     
  17. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    If................. !
    But I even doubt the 'if'..............

    Your 60% figure just is not accurate, but in any event I cannot see Christians leaving their faith for Bahaism once they realise that Bahauallah did not believe in a Resurrected Jesus.

    Bahais don't believe in the existence of Evil either, which is another rather large void for Bahai to somehow breach.
     
  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    You didn't quote the Bahai Prophet!
    Only the claims of the Bahai Prophet could possibly be worth focusing upon.
    You have no evidence at all. True.
     
  19. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    When you stumble over things you should push them out of the way for the sake of those following behind.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    That's another huge problem.
    Christians don't believe that, they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
     
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