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Featured Resurrection of Christ: Literal fact or spiritual reality?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. MHz

    MHz Member

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    The verses below show that to be the opposite of what the text says. The one from from the Gospel of John can be argued to mean John the Baptist rather John the Apostle. The names of the other three Gospels are most likely the names of the Scribes who copied the original documents as that would have been a task Paul would have done at every stop he made along the way of his various travels.
    We can determine that Peter, James and his brother John are the writers of those Gospels as all 3 are said to be the only witnesses to the vision on the mountain and the resurrection of the little girl that Jesus said was 'sleeping'.
    The Apostles were not at the cross but they each contain references to that event. Mary M. would have been the one that updated Peter and the mother of James and John would have updated them. That leave Mary of Bethany as the one that was the witness to the cross in the Gospel of John. She says flat out what she wrote was through the eyes of an witness.

    Joh:21:24:
    This is the disciple which testifieth of these things,
    and wrote these things:
    and we know that his testimony is true.
    Joh:21:25:
    And there are also many other things which Jesus did,
    the which,
    if they should be written every one,
    I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
    Amen.

    1Jo:1:1-3:
    That which was from the beginning,
    which we have heard,
    which we have seen with our eyes,
    which we have looked upon,
    and our hands have handled,
    of the Word of life;
    (For the life was manifested,
    and we have seen it,
    and bear witness,
    and shew unto you that eternal life,
    which was with the Father,
    and was manifested unto us;)
    That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
    that ye also may have fellowship with us:
    and truly our fellowship is with the Father,
    and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    In other words a best guess. Would that be the earliest surviving copy? Luke:21:12-24 are the experiences of the Apostles when they are in Jerusalem after the stoning of Stephen (before Acts:10 which is 3 1/2 years after the cross in 30AD) That would be the first time prophecy was given in hindsight. James:1:1 mentions a scattering as being a past event.
    The only qualifier is that Jesus be glorified and the Scribes be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Both were completed the first night after His resurrection. The next 40 days would have been the Apostles (and BD) go through the same 40 day fast that Jesus went through after His baptism in the River Jordan by John the Baptist. The language issue was solved just a few days after the cross so Saul could have been reading them when he was struck blind. Over the next few days Christ informed Saul about what was in all the Gospels so he was able to pass the test that was given to him before the blindness was lifted.

    According to the book James and John were brothers, why not stick with the version that has them be the witnesses to those two events and give Peter the biggest book as he was the Chief Apostle, one step below of how important the Beloved Disciple is to Jesus.
    The same can be applied to the OT Scribes as well, they were living witnesses rather than being a teller of tall stories.

    Actually Paul went to the Synagogues first so the copying of the Gospels in Greek was their task. That it was preaching to the Gentiles is because it is the Gentile Nations that come under fierce judgment when the return happens. Peter preached to Gentiles in Acts:10 and that is before Paul was preaching good things about Christ. Peter and the other Apostles that stayed in Jerusalem until 70AD would have been preaching the same message that Paul was. They did not start preaching to Gentiles directly until after the scattering in James:1:1. Revelation is the last of the message from God and it is to the people Paul was forbidden to teach to as his assignment was to head for Rome itself. The Book of Romans is the 'contract' between Christ and the ones He leaves the sword of protection from evil with. Misuse comes with the appropriate punishment.

    They certainly has stories to the extent temples were built. That would fit in with who the sons of God from Ge:6 were as they were immortals who would have witnessed all the creation days which is 4B years and counting. The Bible promotes they had the run of the earth except for the Garden area defined in Ge:2. That version of creation starts out with Adam and God alone with a barren piece of land in front of them. Put that at 400,000BC and over the next 360,000 years the garden becomes what it was at the end of the 6th day. Adam and Eve would have had the garden alone from 40,000BC to 4,000BC and the sin would have been about the last day of that time period.

    Fallen angels were not put into the Pit until the time of the flood back to the end of day 1. Their differences in abilities starts with them being immortal and falls short of mankind in that they do not have the emotions that go along with being a parent and a shepherd or other flesh. They are master craftsmen as far as stone and metal goes. The link below is to a series of vids of all the ancient places that can still be found. So far there is not rational scientific explanation.
    Angels from Jude:1 would qualify and the 4 fallen ones from the 6th trump actually gives you a number to play with as well as the size. We would call it 200M horsepower in the form of 200M workhorses and a strong men.
    How long to move 200M stones for monuments in Egypt?
    How long to keep a fire going in the Sphinx enclosure in an attempt to destroy it entirely??
    There was also a resurrection from the grave in the OT, Job:14 is confirmed by what Martha says about her dead brother in John:11. The resurrection in the Gospels takes all 4 accounts to be included before the picture is 'clear'.

    The cross only has women at it, Peter is the first Apostle to be involved and that is the morning of His resurrection and they are leaving Jerusalem after the Passover Sabbath and then the weekly Sabbath is finished. With him is Mary from Bethany who would be escorting Mary the mother of Jesus and the other women there. Mary M. runs ahead and sees the empty tomb and runs back and tells the main group at which point the Beloved Disciple outruns Peter to get to the tomb and then she waits for Peter to catch up and that scene unfolds with the main group departing and Jesus in resurrected but not glorified form and Mary M. had their little chat. Mary M would have relayed that message to the others and the Beloved Disciple attended but Mary M. did not. She would have been at the Acts:2 event however.
    Jesus would have ascended to the temple in re:4 and been glorified by God and been back on earth to walk with a few Apostles that afternoon and then that evening He baptized 11 Apostles and the Beloved Disciple.
    That hits all the highlights I hope.

    lol, . . . .other than that it's bang on though? Hope that bit just above helps show what my version looks like.
    A similar thing happens with the vision on the mountain, you need them all to get the best picture. One version has the time of the secret starting and the other has the time it ends, apart they are confusing compared to what they present when combined (in a certain way)

    What was taught at one location was written down and circulated to all the locations of any teaching.
    Lazarus the Beggar is asleep in death. Martha expected her brother to be raised from the literal grave on the 'last day' and the smell being mentioned is to reinforce that the person had been dead a number of days.
    That version also supports the resurrection in Eze:37 as being a literal one that includes the people mentioned.

    Saul was the first, he was a long way from being the only one that was baptized with that spirit. It does show how easy it is for a person to be converted. The two witnesses would be the next ones in line for that level of a relationship with Jesus.

    Sounds like Saul saw Him before his conversion pf 'born out of due time' means before he was gathered.

    Sounds more like the person who wrote the words about Mount Sion in Hebrews:12.
     
  2. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    All myths have meaning to the believers and are meaningless to those who do not believe. But you can say similar things about art: it is meaningful to those moved by it and meaningless to those who are not.
     
  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    "After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God."

    As clear as this sounds, Baha'is don't believe Jesus came back to life. And, they can't have a risen Savior in their scheme of things. That would make Jesus greater than all the rest of their "manifestations". If they said the NT was a pack of lies, that would be one thing. But they insist they believe in the Bible... and they do... they believe it as re-interpreted by them. Which makes everything you believe about the Bible wrong. Yet, they say all religions have the truth?
     
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    That is their mission statement:
    [​IMG]
    It is like opening an American Hamburger then
    Mixed it with Japanese rice
    Then relish it with French escargot after
    Add some German Frankfurters
    Pour some Filipino Chicken Adobo
    Blend it together with Arabian Shawarma
    And you have....

    upload_2017-5-10_14-25-55.jpeg

    Bon apetit!
     
  5. MHz

    MHz Member

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    Really?? I would think that two reasonable people reading the same text would come to the same conclusion. Try these examples, use the text in Ge:1 as the basis for a theory that fits the old earth version that I tend to like and run it past a believer and a scientist, would they both be able to say that the theory is not impossible rather than being able to prove it wasn't meant to be taken that way.
    Stopping the sun at noon would be done through heavy cloud cover and having Ezekiel's wheel provide the outline of the sun as it appears on a misty day and there you have the story of the world being stopped and the world kept spinning like always. Would both be able to agree that is also not impossible as far as that being what happened that day?
     
  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Sorry it took so long to get back to you. It is springtime in Alaska, and we have been camping, and getting all the toys ready for summer fun. :cool:

    So as a Catholic you believe Thor, or the monkey God Lord Hanuman, and all the other Gods exist? Just like the God you believe is real?

    No you don't.

    This is incorrect. I have read much religious myth. I obviously didn't do this because I - dismiss the value of myth. All philosophy has some value, which is why we read it.

    The problem is when groups expect us to believe it as fact.

    You have obviously taken the dictionary definitions as an insult, - which they are not. They just state the facts.

    Myth = a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

    Mythos = the underlying system of beliefs, especially those dealing with supernatural forces, characteristic of a particular cultural group.

    *
     
  7. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Again, Saul was born AFTER Jesus died, - so obviously he wasn't at the sermon Jesus gave.

    *
     
  8. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    What? You've got to be kidding.

    Stopping the sun, or the earth stopping spinning, would have consequences.

    The Hebrew had obviously seen cloud cover, - and would not conclude that the sun had stopped, - or disappeared.

    Ezekiel's wheel vision is thought to refer to the Zodiac, and YHVH the SUN God showing up in his solar chariot.

    [​IMG] Ancient Synagogue floor mosaic.

    *
     
  9. MHz

    MHz Member

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    Saul was a Pries when Stephen was killed a few years after the cross. If Saul was close to being the one in charge then he would also have been a 'seasoned' Priest also. That does not eliminate Saul from being part of the crowd in Matthew:23.
     
  10. FunctionalAtheist

    FunctionalAtheist Hammer of Reason

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    Hoax perpetuated at the time or myth concocted at a later date.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    You are NOT LISTENING/reading!

    He could NOT have been there - because he WASN'T BORN YET.

    Saul was born AFTER Jesus died.

    "c. 2 A.D. Paul is born in Tarsus"

    Apostle Paul's Birth to First Journey Timeline

    *
     
    #711 Ingledsva, May 12, 2017
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  12. MHz

    MHz Member

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    QUOTE="Ingledsva, post: 5183932, member: 33094"]What? You've got to be kidding.
    [/QUOTE]
    Not at all, How do you think Jeremiah traveled around the globe to deliver a message to the nations in Jeremiah:25. Even the start of Bethlehem would have been a light as small as a handheld flashlight since it directed people to end up at a certain street address.

    To be quite truthful the 'wheel within a wheel' defines the classic saucer shape
    [​IMG]

    That is what a reader from our century would see when reading those verses, if the text is to the people that will experience the calamity that comes at the end of Jer:25 then this verse is talking about the globe as we know it rather than as the people knew it the ancient days which is when some of the text was written.

    Jer:25:15-18:
    For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me;
    Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand,
    and cause all the nations,
    to whom I send thee,
    to drink it.
    And they shall drink,
    and be moved,
    and be mad,
    because of the sword that I will send among them.
    Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand,
    and made all the nations to drink,
    unto whom the LORD had sent me:
    To wit,
    Jerusalem,
    and the cities of Judah,
    and the kings thereof,
    and the princes thereof,
    to make them a desolation,
    an astonishment,
    an hissing,
    and a curse; as it is this day;

    Jer:25:26:
    And all the kings of the north,
    far and near,
    one with another,
    and all the kingdoms of the world,
    which are upon the face of the earth:
    and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
     
  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Sounding like a modern description of a UFO - does not make it a UFO.

    1. Nope. It tells us it was a vision.

    2. It is far more likely that the "vision" had context to his beliefs. And they did associate YHVH with the sun, and we have the mosaics showing us this, as well as verses.

    Psalms 84:11 For a Sun and Shield is YHVH Elohiym; beauty and splendor gives he YHVH, and does not withhold prosperity from those who walk in integrity.

    THE PRACTICAL BIBLE DICTIONARY, SUN; The greater light, Gen. 1:15-18. WORSHIPPED by idolatrous HEBREWS, 2 Kgs 21:3,5; 23:5.

    Unger's Bible Encyclopedia has an article on this Hebrew sun worship. Etc.

    "Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." - Taylor, Glen, Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel


    "
    On the journey, we will learn not only that Yahweh did have a consort, but that at a very early period—the Taanach cult stand dates to the tenth century B.C.E.—Israel conceived of Yahweh abstractly and non-anthropomorphically. At this same time, Yahweh was also symbolically represented—at least occasionally—by the sun. All these strands of theological understanding of Yahweh and Yahweh worship existed simultaneously—a most elevated and abstract understanding within a pagan (though Yahwistic) context." Was Yahweh Worshiped as the Sun?

    2Ki 23:11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.

    Even Jesus -


    Mal. 4:2 - But unto you who fear my name shall the "SUN" of Righteousness arise with healing in his rays; (not wings)

    Wings is 3671 kanaph - edge, extremity, pinnacle, to project down, corner (corner of altar-horn-ray) In other words the SUN's healing RAYS, not wings! And even if we add wings to the sun - we then have the Egyptian winged Sun disk.
    *

    Psa 68:1 to the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.

    Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

    Psa 68: 32, 33, 34

    Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth;

    O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:

    To HIM that RIDETH UPON THE HEAVENS,” which were of old;

    lo, he doth send out “His Crackling Thunder Voice;”

    and that a “mighty thunder. “

    Ascribe ye strength unto God:

    His excellency is “OVER” Israel,

    and His Strength is in the Clouds.


    *
     
    #713 Ingledsva, May 12, 2017
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  14. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who presents the myth itself as fact has no understanding of myth.

    They are insufficient. Would you find a dictionary definition sufficient enough to explain the complexities of anything?

    Schrempp’s work leads one to consider the prevalence of myths in our culture, historically and today. Myths seem to offer us symbolic resources we need to communicate. As Schrempp notes: "even the grandest paradigms of Western social science are, at base, often folk notions recast within the rhetoric and style of ‘science’" (1992: 38). Although the prevalence of mythological details in our discourse keys us to its importance, we typically insist upon distinguishing ways of thinking about the world, and today we think of myth as lesser than science. The general public persistently uses the word "myth" as something untrue and / or unworthy of serious consideration. The Greek word mythos or "story" suggests potential untruth, but the perceived unworthiness of stories stems from a scientific, rational perspective in juxtaposition to other ways of thinking and expression. Yet the persistence of myths throughout our culture reveals their worth.

    https://faculty.gcsu.edu/custom-website/mary-magoulick/defmyth.htm



    J.R.R. Tolkien's love of myths and devout Catholic faith came together in his assertion that mythology is the divine echo of "the Truth".[26] Tolkien wrote that myths held "fundamental things".[27] He expressed these beliefs in his poem Mythopoeia circa 1931, which describes myth-making as an act of "sub-creation" within God's primary creation.[28] The poem in part says creation is "myth-woven and elf-patterned":

    http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Religion_and_mythology

    If myth and poetry are dismissed there remains only an absurdity. .
     
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    And tell me again how these logical and true encyclopedia definitions make religious myth into absurdity?

    Myth = a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

    Mythos = the underlying system of beliefs, especially those dealing with supernatural forces, characteristic of a particular cultural group.

    *
     
  16. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    They don't. Read carefully;

    If myth and poetry are dismissed there remains only absurdity.
     
  17. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Biblical testimony. Jesus rose from the dead as written.
     
  18. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    And Abram went from his country, removed himself from the scene realizing that it is neither the sun nor the moon which is the decisive deity. The decisive deity was believed to be the principle behind the sun and the moon which made them shine.
     
  19. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    They literally worshiped the Sun as deity at one point, - as all the surrounding nations did.

    There are many books and studies for this.

    Take special note of these two -

    "Several lines of evidence, both archaeological and biblical, bear witness to a close relationship between Yahweh and the sun. The nature of that association is such that often a 'solar' character was presumed for Yahweh. Indeed, at many points the sun actually represented Yahweh as a kind of 'icon.' Thus, in at least the vast majority of cases, biblical passages which refer to sun worship in Israel do not refer to a foreign phenomenon borrowed by idolatrous Israelites, but to a Yahwistic phenomenon which Deuteronomistic theology came to look upon as idolatrous.... an association between Yahweh and the sun was not limited to one or two obscure contexts, but was remarkably well integrated into the religion of ancient Israel." - Taylor, Glen, Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel

    "... came to look upon as idolatrous ..." It was their original religion.

    "
    On the journey, we will learn not only that Yahweh did have a consort, but that at a very early period—the Taanach cult stand dates to the tenth century B.C.E.—Israel conceived of Yahweh abstractly and non-anthropomorphically. At this same time, Yahweh was also symbolically represented—at least occasionally—by the sun. All these strands of theological understanding of Yahweh and Yahweh worship existed simultaneously—a most elevated and abstract understanding within a pagan (though Yahwistic) context." Was Yahweh Worshiped as the Sun?

    That one is from the Biblical Archaeology Society.

    The Bible itself tells us they had a Goddess, and that they continued to worship the SUN and Goddess even after the reforms.

    Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

    Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

    Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

    Just read I & II Kings, and other books. The Hebrew commit genocide over-and-over on the Kings, Priests and people that try to keep the old Gods.

    2Ki 23:11 And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the Sun, at the entering in of the house of YHVH, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the Sun with fire.

    This one is interesting - YHVH is called Baal -

    Hos 2:16 And at that day (saith YHVH) thou shalt call me, O my husband, and shalt call me no more Baal.

    2Ki 23:4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of YHVH all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.

    "...In fact, archaeologists and language experts indicate that it is difficult to distinguish Israelite and Canaanite culture until the early Early Iron Age, around the time of King David. We can imagine a situation in which some of the proto-Israelites worshiped a variety of gods, or worshiped God in a variety of forms using many names. Thus, Jeru-baal (Gideon)—was named for both Yahweh and Baal; while the Judge Shamgar ben Anath was named after the war goddess Anat. Saul, anointed by the Yahwist prophet Samuel as Israel's first king, nevertheless named two of his sons Ish-baal and Meri-baal. ..." Yahweh - New World Encyclopedia

    Because they were nomadic Canaanites! And they originally worshiped a SUN God Baal and Asherah.

    Same reason they originally sacrificed the Firstborn to God.

    upload_2017-5-13_16-34-26.png Hebrew SUN God in his Sun Chariot - surrounded by the Zodiac.
     
    #719 Ingledsva, May 13, 2017
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  20. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    the orthodox believe it to be literal. Jesus physically rose from the dead, thus defeating death.
     
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