Responsible management of the earth’s resources as a spiritual issue

[David T]

NOTE (added in an edit): This thread is in the General Discussion forum, not the General Debate forum.

@David T called my attention to a curiosity in Internet discussions. There is intense interest in responsible management of the earth’s resources, and there is intense interest in spiritual issues, but there doesn’t seem to be much interest in responsible management of the earth’s resources as a spiritual issue. He also gave me this link:

Alliance for Wild Ethics

That interests me because I think that understanding it as a spiritual issue is part of what is needed, to stop the ravaging. That includes an understanding of how the ravaging of the earth’s resources, and all other current issues, are intertwined with each other and with the need for a certain kind of love, for the earth and all its people.

Some other reading on this topic:

Exploring Synergies between Faith Values and Education for Sustainable Development

Spiritual Dimensions of Sustainable Development Project - Earth Charter

Alliance of Religions and Conservation

Dacidt is a crackpot! He runs around saying breathe try it you might like it!, mocking us believers non believers, agnostics! We three agree mutually he is nuts!!!!

As a breathairian "we believe we breathe and thats we believe".

We are totally in on this!!! That calls for a song by a fellow breathairian i know personally. Nice fella. Complex song. We must relearn how to play again lost talent!

 

[David T]

But didn't God give man dominion over the earth? Didn't he make it all for us to use? Isn't He going to make all things new again after we muck it all up?

That is understood before its actually read . Therefore one must deal with that to actually read it! A stick bug!!

 

[Jim]

@David T A lot of people might have had some experience with what is sometimes called “communing with nature.” Watching a sunset, looking at mountains or a waterfall, following a nature trail or camping in the wild. People can get some experience with that even from paintings, photographs and stories. What do you know about how people develop a deep love for nature? Are there stories about that, how that love grows on people? What if I want to learn to love nature more, in the way that is needed for responsible management of the earth’s resources? Would you have any ideas for me?

 

[David T]

I am going to derail your derail. Not everything in matters spiritual have to do what a god as God. There are other ways to look at the scared than just through God. How about that Nature is scared?
So spiritual as only through God limits the spiritual to some certain cultural traditions and if we look at as wide as possible there are other ways to do it than "traditional western style dominance". So here it is from God to as wide as possible in a western tradition:
7th Principle: Respect for the Interdependent Web of All Existence of Which We Are a Part

Peace

i think pail said renewal of the mind daily not double down what we know and build an empire. Pretty certain. Another verse that is understood before we read it and we tend to automatic default to that. Like a stick bug!!! Look a stick.... Oh wait a bug.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know about "spiritual" but since its inception the contemporary Pagan movement has held environmental ethics front and center. Probably has to do with the fact that are gods are, well... nature to some degree or another. A major reason contemporary Paganism appealed to me when I learned it existed was it explicitly respected the sacredness of the non-human world.

When your gods are nature, though, you don't look at nature as a "resource" to be "managed." That language itself sounds way too impersonal, disenchanting, and exploitative. Nature is full of gods, full of persons with their own wants and needs, and our job is to develop a healthy relationship with them.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I don't know about "spiritual" but since its inception the contemporary Pagan movement has held environmental ethics front and center. Probably has to do with the fact that are gods are, well... nature to some degree or another. A major reason contemporary Paganism appealed to me when I learned it existed was it explicitly respected the sacredness of the non-human world.

When your gods are nature, though, you don't look at nature as a "resource" to be "managed." That language itself sounds way too impersonal, disenchanting, and exploitative. Nature is full of gods, full of persons with their own wants and needs, and our job is to develop a healthy relationship with them.

In reading through this thread, this is what I was thinking about to say...only it wasn't coming together...Thanks, @Quintessence !

 

[Jim]

A major reason contemporary Paganism appealed to me when I learned it existed was it explicitly respected the sacredness of the non-human world.

That’s an encouraging new thought for me, interest in Paganism as a response to the need for people to have a better relationship with the rest of nature. Suddenly I see a possibility that there’s already a lot more of the love that I think is needed, than I realized.

When your gods are nature, though, you don't look at nature as a "resource" to be "managed." That language itself sounds way too impersonal, disenchanting, and exploitative.
Nature is full of gods, full of persons with their own wants and needs, and our job is to develop a healthy relationship with them.

I agree.

That post was everything I was wishing for in this thread, and more.

Do you have any thoughts about how that love and understanding might grow and spread? If you think that it already is growing and spreading, how is that happening?

 

[sooda]

I don't know about "spiritual" but since its inception the contemporary Pagan movement has held environmental ethics front and center. Probably has to do with the fact that are gods are, well... nature to some degree or another. A major reason contemporary Paganism appealed to me when I learned it existed was it explicitly respected the sacredness of the non-human world.

When your gods are nature, though, you don't look at nature as a "resource" to be "managed." That language itself sounds way too impersonal, disenchanting, and exploitative. Nature is full of gods, full of persons with their own wants and needs, and our job is to develop a healthy relationship with them.

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam we are not to indulge in tattoos or scarification or anything that defiles the body.

Is it such a leap from there to preservation of the planet?

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Please note that this thread is in the Discussion forum, no debating allowed. If you would like to debate this topic, please create a thread in one of the Debate forums.​

 

[Quintessence]

That’s an encouraging new thought for me, interest in Paganism as a response to the need for people to have a better relationship with the rest of nature.

The movement developed during the same time as many other countercultural movements, including environmentalism. There was a lot of cross-pollination between contemporary Paganism, environmentalism, and feminism back when. All of those have remained influential streams within the movement to the present day. It makes for an interesting history.

There's also momentum that has come from more "secular" sources. Environmental education was certainly a thing for me growing up as a kid in the wake of the environmentalism of the 70s. I work in education today, and I definitely see a lot more awareness of the human-nature relationship among today's college-aged students.

Do you have any thoughts about how that love and understanding might grow and spread? If you think that it already is growing and spreading, how is that happening?

A lot of it begins with what I mention above - education. There's a lot more to be done on that front. High school biology classes still focus mainly on cellular/molecular and human topics with not enough coverage of ecology and biodiversity. People cannot care about that which they do not know, and the machinations of modern civilization do much to dissociate humans from their non-human environments. I mean, I'm pretty darned sure I became Pagan as an adult because I grew up in a household where I played in the woods as a kid, was encouraged to learn about nature through science, and had parents who were early-adopters of things like recycling and giving a damn about nature. People need role models. It makes ecological awareness normal and routine.

Speaking of routine, the love and understanding is just the starting point, right? It has to translate into behaviors to have an impact on the current extinction crisis. In terms of lifestyle, that often means making do with an awful lot less than our capitalist economy would like. If our economy thought in more cyclical terms, that might not be the case, but currently corporations taking into account the full life cycle of their products or the true costs of production is the exception to the rule. Being a consumer isn't inherently a problem when you model your consumption off natural systems that cycle resources in an endless, sustainable loop. We don't do that right now, but eventually we're going to have to.

 

[Jim]

The movement developed during the same time as many other countercultural movements, including environmentalism. There was a lot of cross-pollination between contemporary Paganism, environmentalism, and feminism back when. All of those have remained influential streams within the movement to the present day. It makes for an interesting history.

There's also momentum that has come from more "secular" sources. Environmental education was certainly a thing for me growing up as a kid in the wake of the environmentalism of the 70s. I work in education today, and I definitely see a lot more awareness of the human-nature relationship among today's college-aged students.



A lot of it begins with what I mention above - education. There's a lot more to be done on that front. High school biology classes still focus mainly on cellular/molecular and human topics with not enough coverage of ecology and biodiversity. People cannot care about that which they do not know, and the machinations of modern civilization do much to dissociate humans from their non-human environments. I mean, I'm pretty darned sure I became Pagan as an adult because I grew up in a household where I played in the woods as a kid, was encouraged to learn about nature through science, and had parents who were early-adopters of things like recycling and giving a damn about nature. People need role models. It makes ecological awareness normal and routine.

Speaking of routine, the love and understanding is just the starting point, right? It has to translate into behaviors to have an impact on the current extinction crisis. In terms of lifestyle, that often means making do with an awful lot less than our capitalist economy would like. If our economy thought in more cyclical terms, that might not be the case, but currently corporations taking into account the full life cycle of their products or the true costs of production is the exception to the rule. Being a consumer isn't inherently a problem when you model your consumption off natural systems that cycle resources in an endless, sustainable loop. We don't do that right now, but eventually we're going to have to.

Thank you. That’s all very helpful. I’m really glad that you brought Paganism into this, because I think it’s just what this thread needed, to help keep it on topic. Also, it fills in a huge missing piece in my puzzle.

Bringing it closer to home, what can anyone do who wants to, in Internet forums, along with whatever else we’re doing, to help that love and understanding grow and spread, in ourselves and all around us?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

i think pail said renewal of the mind daily not double down what we know and build an empire. Pretty certain. Another verse that is understood before we read it and we tend to automatic default to that. Like a stick bug!!! Look a stick.... Oh wait a bug.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. But I think I get and if so, I agree.

 

[Jim]

@Quintessence I hope you’ll discuss this with me some more. Your posts have been like an oasis for me. I’m planning to browse through the websites that I linked to, and post some thoughts here.

I’m thinking now that what needs to be done to stop the ravaging, needs to be done by a lot of people, and it is very hard to do. Appeals to pragmatism, economic self-interest, or even love for our grandchildren, will never motivate people enough to do what needs to be done. What might motivate people enough is that personal relationship with nature. That’s part of what makes it a spiritual issue, in my ways of thinking. Only, we need a lot more of it, and it needs to be a lot stronger and more personal in all of us. I really mean “us,” because I feel like it needs to be a lot stronger in me. We’ve discussed how that might happen. Do you have any thoughts about how it might happen in some forums where people are debating about religions? Me, for example? What might happen here for me, that could help my love for nature grow stronger and more personal?

Stories from Paganism, and from the lives of people following Pagan paths?

This is wonderful. This could possibly be a place like what I was wishing for, where hands can touch, no, are already touching, across religious divides, and religion/science divides. I’m in tears now.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Quintessence I hope you’ll discuss this with me some more. Your posts have been like an oasis for me. I’m planning to browse through the websites that I linked to, and post some thoughts here.

I’m thinking now that what needs to be done to stop the ravaging, needs to be done by a lot of people, and it is very hard to do. Appeals to pragmatism, economic self-interest, or even love for our grandchildren, will never motivate people enough to do what needs to be done. What might motivate people enough is that personal relationship with nature. That’s part of what makes it a spiritual issue, in my ways of thinking. Only, we need a lot more of it, and it needs to be a lot stronger and more personal in all of us. I really mean “us,” because I feel like it needs to be a lot stronger in me. We’ve discussed how that might happen. Do you have any thoughts about how it might happen in some forums where people are debating about religions? Me, for example? What might happen here for me, that could help my love for nature grow stronger and more personal?

Stories from Paganism, and from the lives of people following Pagan paths?

This is wonderful. This could possibly be a place like what I was wishing for, where hands can touch, no, are already touching, across religious divides, and religion/science divides. I’m in tears now.

I don't know how to answer you, because it is about you and in you. But here is my advice.

Notice nature how ever remote it might be even in modern civilization and rejoice in that.
Learn that your worship is in part when you buy less meat, when you turn off the light and other electrical devices and then rejoice in that.
You are a butterfly and if enough of us as butterflies do that, it adds up.
Do the work as you as can do it. Don't hold yourself to an ideal you can't live up. You are where you are and how you are. Start there and do what you can do from there, however minimal it might seem. And then pass it on, just as I do. You are an activist in your own life, but you start with that. Not the ideal of the perfect solution unless you can in effect live as a minimalist.

With the best regards

 

[David T]

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. But I think I get and if so, I agree.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. But I think I get and if so, I agree.

We live in a very dead reality so the insane say. We live in a huge dead. And by random accidental automatic process we by magic self assemble. There is a major problem. Dead only exists in the human brain as a quantificarion in separation from living. Its a mental disorder..

So when i see the world around me as living not dead and i hear its dead and not living thats a mental disorder. We are a living in a larger living and thus daily i grow.
I dont spend time being dead in a living no thats xrazy talk if ya see reality around you as dead well you are the dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead they are confused. Crazy i say.

 

[Quintessence]

Bringing it closer to home, what can anyone do who wants to, in Internet forums, along with whatever else we’re doing, to help that love and understanding grow and spread, in ourselves and all around us?

I talked about education before, but education really starts with something much simpler - paying attention. The art of observation is key. Without paying attention, there is no knowledge. Without knowledge, there is nothing to teach others about and no education. It all starts with paying attention.

Which, as simple as it sounds, it is not... especially in modern civilization. As glorious as the information age is, there is a lot of noise that pulls our attention in a hundred directions at once. Any signals get lost in the noise. The way modern civilization is set up - at least in my country - the noise is "humans, humans, humans, humans!" with very little talk about the non-human world other than, perhaps, the weather. And when something is beneath our notice, it fades into irrelevance. From there, it's not hard to ignore what we deem irrelevant as a subject unworthy of ethical consideration or as a non-person.

Mindfulness meditations are a good tool here. Just go outside for ten minutes and do nothing but actually pay attention to your environment. Watch the clouds. Look at how the sun casts shadows upon the earth. Examine the different patterns of barks on the trees. Listen to the bird songs. Even in the most human-manipulated environments nature is there. It is in us, the roads hewn from bedrock, the fire of the street lights, the wooden support beams of our homes, the threads of our clothes. It's all nature. And we do not exist without it. Period. If that isn't reason enough to be respectful, I don't know what is. I don't expect others to take the step of deification like I do, but lacking respect for that upon which we depend for everything is profoundly misguided. Those that don't see that total dependence are not paying attention. .

 

[Jim]

I talked about education before, but education really starts with something much simpler - paying attention. The art of observation is key. Without paying attention, there is no knowledge. Without knowledge, there is nothing to teach others about and no education. It all starts with paying attention.

Which, as simple as it sounds, it is not... especially in modern civilization. As glorious as the information age is, there is a lot of noise that pulls our attention in a hundred directions at once. Any signals get lost in the noise. The way modern civilization is set up - at least in my country - the noise is "humans, humans, humans, humans!" with very little talk about the non-human world other than, perhaps, the weather. And when something is beneath our notice, it fades into irrelevance. From there, it's not hard to ignore what we deem irrelevant as a subject unworthy of ethical consideration or as a non-person.

Mindfulness meditations are a good tool here. Just go outside for ten minutes and do nothing but actually pay attention to your environment. Watch the clouds. Look at how the sun casts shadows upon the earth. Examine the different patterns of barks on the trees. Listen to the bird songs. Even in the most human-manipulated environments nature is there. It is in us, the roads hewn from bedrock, the fire of the street lights, the wooden support beams of our homes, the threads of our clothes. It's all nature. And we do not exist without it. Period. If that isn't reason enough to be respectful, I don't know what is. I don't expect others to take the step of deification like I do, but lacking respect for that upon which we depend for everything is profoundly misguided. Those that don't see that total dependence are not paying attention. .

I’ve started reading the essays at the AWE website, and a feeling came to me that’s hard for me to describe. It might just be what you’ve already said. Thinking of environmental issues only in terms of how they threaten human life will never be enough to motivate the action that is needed to remove the threat. Looking at that, I see that in itself as still thinking of the issues in terms of how they threaten human life. How do I get out of that way of thinking? Just by jumping out of it, into the way of thinking that I think is the only way that can possibly remove the threats to human life.

That way is the way of learning to love nature for its own sake, and to free ourselves from the illusion of not being a part of it. Then I see that I already love nature that way. I started my life and lived through part of my childhood loving nature that way. I just need to find ways for that love to grow in me, and to help it grow and spread all around the world. I can use what I’ve already been practicing and promoting for helping with the growth and spread of the same kind of love for all people everywhere.

 

[PruePhillip]

That’s an encouraging new thought for me, interest in Paganism as a response to the need for people to have a better relationship with the rest of nature. Suddenly I see a possibility that there’s already a lot more of the love that I think is needed, than I realized.

I agree.

That post was everything I was wishing for in this thread, and more.

Do you have any thoughts about how that love and understanding might grow and spread? If you think that it already is growing and spreading, how is that happening?

I thought Paganism was rejection of God as we see Him through Judaeo Christianity.
Pagans, as in Nth American Indians or Australian Aborigines, were responsible for
the wholesale destruction of the world's Mega Fauna, and through fire, reshaping
the ancient world's ecosystems. No connection with "being in harmony with the
environment."

New world paganism is essentially a nihilistic, drug addled, adulterous world trying
to create new meaning in life for itself - free from moral constraint.

 

[Jim]

After seeing a discussion about how to achieve peace and justice, I decided to post some thoughts here about the current mismanagement of the earth’s resources. First I want to list some ideas that I’ve been practicing and promoting in response to that and to other social issues
- Thinking of spiritual growth and community service as ways of helping to improve the lives of all people everywhere and helping to improve the world for future generations. Spiritual growth includes nurturing warm feelings and friendly intentions towards all people and all of nature.
- Subordinating other interests to those purposes at all levels of resource management, from individual to international.
- Worldwide collaboration on global issues, at the level of neighborhoods, villages, cities and other subdivisions of nations.
- Learning to strictly avoid thinking about social issues and possible responses in terms of groups or categories of people, including ones defined by what people believe or don’t believe.
- Learning to strictly avoid depreciating people, and especially, openly refusing to participate in campaigns of vilification of any kind, against any person or group or category of people, for any reason or purpose.
- Practicing all of that everywhere in everything we do, online and offline.
- Looking for light in science and in religion, not in what people think they know from research and scriptures, but in their stories and in the fellowship of people following that light.

——

One reason I see for the mismanagement of the earth’s resources is people not valuing all of nature enough, including all people everywhere, and not caring enough what happens to them. Another is a widespread moral vacuum in which any excuse will do, for people to indulge their worst impulses. Another is personal attachments. Another is popular prejudices and delusions. Possibly along with other forces, those result in a world economy that resembles a monopoly game, where most people everywhere, at all economic levels, are trying to get ahead in the game, mostly over the dead bodies (sometimes literally) of people at levels lower than theirs.