• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Responsibility to Free Institutions

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
We live in a society that, generally, gives us a level of personal and political freedoms that many people in the world do not have. We often take these freedoms for granted as they become part of the background noise of our everyday life. However, Freedom is not the natural condition of mankind. Most of human history is characterised by tyranny and slavery. We may well believe that freedom is the product of a set of "inalienable rights" arising from god or nature, but these were still rights that had to be fought for. Our ancestors made enormous sacrifices to ensure that human dignity did in fact entail our rights. The tradition of freedom is not infinite and not eternal. It has finite limits and there are limits to its tolerance. Stretched beyond those limits, free societies are fragile and easily break. Functioning Democracies can easily become dictatorships and it can take generations for that process to be reversed. One of our greatest fears, expressed by authors such as George Orwell is that we may encounter dictatorships whose grip over the hearts and minds is so absolute, that there is no prospect of a reversal.

Liberty is not guaranteed but is an inheritance from one generation to another and it is up to each generation to renew its faith in personal liberty and to secure the institutions for the duration of brief its stewardship in government. Liberty is about more than individual wants. It is a common resources from which all of us can benefit. But when societies are driven only by self-interest, our common resources are degraded because people take advantage of them without putting something back to ensure that those resources continue for another generation.

What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?
I think this thought you are having needs to be passed on to the next generation, and that is difficult. If you can do that then you are supporting those institutions.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?

I'd say that emphasizing that rights come not from a deity or nature, but from people deliberating, enumerating the rights that they feel are appropriate, fighting to win them where necessary, defending them once established, interpreting their application and extent, and enforcing them.

This reflects the historical reality, and emphasizes that rights aren't a gift from the universe that we walk up to and pick up as the other phrases imply, but rather, something requiring vigilance and at times action to sustain.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
IMO, We are no more free today then we were at anytime throughout history. Our master has just changed today it is money. There are no free institutions today, all are managed by money. A simple one the RF use to be supported independently no ads, no charge for memberships and frubals were free. Even today the RF has succumbed to the master of money. This is not to say anything bad about the RF but to show that everywhere today money is the master.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
IMO, We are no more free today then we were at anytime throughout history. Our master has just changed today it is money. There are no free institutions today, all are managed by money. A simple one the RF use to be supported independently no ads, no charge for memberships and frubals were free. Even today the RF has succumbed to the master of money. This is not to say anything bad about the RF but to show that everywhere today money is the master.

I don't disagree on this. However, there are those who would argue that money as a medium of exchange allows for parties to voluntarily enter in to an agreement. If money were removed from the equation, there is no exchange but only the command of one person on another. One person demands the products of another's labour and, turning it in to an obligation for the other party to fulfil, uses force to make them a slave. People cease to be an ends and become merely another's means. Money certainly has tyrannical properties, especially for the many who are without it, but it also ensures that liberty continues to exist arguably so that our economic activities are not governed purely by forced and violence.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We live in a society that, generally, gives us a level of personal and political freedoms that many people in the world do not have. We often take these freedoms for granted as they become part of the background noise of our everyday life. However, Freedom is not the natural condition of mankind. Most of human history is characterised by tyranny and slavery. We may well believe that freedom is the product of a set of "inalienable rights" arising from god or nature, but these were still rights that had to be fought for. Our ancestors made enormous sacrifices to ensure that human dignity did in fact entail our rights. The tradition of freedom is not infinite and not eternal. It has finite limits and there are limits to its tolerance. Stretched beyond those limits, free societies are fragile and easily break. Functioning Democracies can easily become dictatorships and it can take generations for that process to be reversed. One of our greatest fears, expressed by authors such as George Orwell is that we may encounter dictatorships whose grip over the hearts and minds is so absolute, that there is no prospect of a reversal.

Liberty is not guaranteed but is an inheritance from one generation to another and it is up to each generation to renew its faith in personal liberty and to secure the institutions for the duration of brief its stewardship in government. Liberty is about more than individual wants. It is a common resources from which all of us can benefit. But when societies are driven only by self-interest, our common resources are degraded because people take advantage of them without putting something back to ensure that those resources continue for another generation.

What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?

I think a lot of it depends on how we define "freedom" and "liberty." Regarding the "natural condition of mankind," one thing that comes to mind is how disorganized the world has truly been up until recently. The tyranny only lasted until the borders of the next kingdom or some unclaimed wilderness area where people could go to escape slavery or tyranny.

An able-bodied person with a few primitive tools and practical survival skills (hunting, gathering, etc.) could still eke out a free existence far away from tyranny or slavery. The average peasant would be better equipped and better skilled to do that than those of us living today, where we've grown so heavily dependent on technology that most of us couldn't last more than a day or two out in the wild, even if the wild still existed. Through most of human history, we were only as "free" as nature would allow. A village/tribal existence also afforded some freedom, at least inasmuch as everyone was related to each other and part of the same extended family.

Even in the early days of the American colonies, a lot of the colonists were settlers and farmers along the frontier, who were able to coexist with the Native Americans, trade with them, have small homesteads with enough to able to survive under relatively free conditions. A lot of the early local "governments" were disorganized and far away from the centers of tyranny, so they were mostly left alone. It wasn't until the Seven Years War (aka "French and Indian War") that there started to be more and more government, taxes, and outside interference in areas where people had lived peacefully and freely for generations. It was partly due to that "sudden switch" in governmental style that triggered the colonists to rebel and fight to reclaim the "freedom" that they thought they always had.

But nowadays, it's completely different, mostly due to technology, a rapid rise in population, and government-driven scrambles to claim and take as much land as possible. Now, there is no "unclaimed" or open land available for people to move to, except maybe Alaska or northern Canada, but a lot of today's generations just don't have the skills to survive under those conditions. (I've heard that it's not uncommon for Alaskan rangers and other authorities to find people trying to do that, but failing miserably and in need of rescue - even people who fancy themselves as "survivalists" who are experienced hunters and have better survival skills than most. Even they have found great difficulties.)

So at this point, there is literally no place on Earth where one can go to find true "freedom" from government. Even Antarctica is pretty much all sewn up and under international treaty. Besides, most people like living in a technologically advanced, luxurious society, so they would rather have that with a modicum of "freedom" than have true freedom out in the wilderness.

I don't think it's really true "freedom" that people want, but it's more a sense of decency, morality, and compassion from governments and rulers (in addition to material sustenance, which is more important anyway). If we have to live in a cage either way, then let it be a gilded cage where one can still have a relatively decent life, at least to the point of having their basic needs provided for (as long as they carry their own weight and do a share of the workload).

"Slavery" is as much an illusion as "freedom," when you really think about it. Even back when slavery was legal and more common, most slaves could simply run away and escape - but where would they go? Where could they go, and how could they survive? That's what kept people locked in place - not so much fear of slave-catchers going out en masse to capture one or two errant slaves.

That's why "freedom" is pretty much an illusion, since the common response in America is "love it or leave it." If you don't like living in our "free" society, then there's the door. You can always leave, but leave to where? That's the same choice that a slave would face, so there's really no difference, when you come right down to it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think a lot of it depends on how we define "freedom" and "liberty." Regarding the "natural condition of mankind," one thing that comes to mind is how disorganized the world has truly been up until recently. The tyranny only lasted until the borders of the next kingdom or some unclaimed wilderness area where people could go to escape slavery or tyranny.

An able-bodied person with a few primitive tools and practical survival skills (hunting, gathering, etc.) could still eke out a free existence far away from tyranny or slavery. The average peasant would be better equipped and better skilled to do that than those of us living today, where we've grown so heavily dependent on technology that most of us couldn't last more than a day or two out in the wild, even if the wild still existed. Through most of human history, we were only as "free" as nature would allow. A village/tribal existence also afforded some freedom, at least inasmuch as everyone was related to each other and part of the same extended family.

Even in the early days of the American colonies, a lot of the colonists were settlers and farmers along the frontier, who were able to coexist with the Native Americans, trade with them, have small homesteads with enough to able to survive under relatively free conditions. A lot of the early local "governments" were disorganized and far away from the centers of tyranny, so they were mostly left alone. It wasn't until the Seven Years War (aka "French and Indian War") that there started to be more and more government, taxes, and outside interference in areas where people had lived peacefully and freely for generations. It was partly due to that "sudden switch" in governmental style that triggered the colonists to rebel and fight to reclaim the "freedom" that they thought they always had.

That's a really interesting point actually. Our dependence on Technology does make it much harder to be "free". It is debatable to what extent our current institutions reflect our technological capabilities in so far as what we are free to do now bears little resemblance to two hundred years ago. Even having a car today means we are "free" to travel faster than the founding fathers in horse back in 1776.

But nowadays, it's completely different, mostly due to technology, a rapid rise in population, and government-driven scrambles to claim and take as much land as possible. Now, there is no "unclaimed" or open land available for people to move to, except maybe Alaska or northern Canada, but a lot of today's generations just don't have the skills to survive under those conditions. (I've heard that it's not uncommon for Alaskan rangers and other authorities to find people trying to do that, but failing miserably and in need of rescue - even people who fancy themselves as "survivalists" who are experienced hunters and have better survival skills than most. Even they have found great difficulties.)

So at this point, there is literally no place on Earth where one can go to find true "freedom" from government. Even Antarctica is pretty much all sewn up and under international treaty. Besides, most people like living in a technologically advanced, luxurious society, so they would rather have that with a modicum of "freedom" than have true freedom out in the wilderness.

What makes you think "true freedom" is out in the wilderness?

I don't think it's really true "freedom" that people want, but it's more a sense of decency, morality, and compassion from governments and rulers (in addition to material sustenance, which is more important anyway). If we have to live in a cage either way, then let it be a gilded cage where one can still have a relatively decent life, at least to the point of having their basic needs provided for (as long as they carry their own weight and do a share of the workload).

If that's what you think, it may be worth giving Erich Fromm's book "The Fear of Freedom" a read. It deals with many of the issues you are talking about here.

"Slavery" is as much an illusion as "freedom," when you really think about it. Even back when slavery was legal and more common, most slaves could simply run away and escape - but where would they go? Where could they go, and how could they survive? That's what kept people locked in place - not so much fear of slave-catchers going out en masse to capture one or two errant slaves.

I know what you are getting at, but I think this is too abstract. In reality, its not simply a question of someone having the will power to be free, to run away and escape. If you've been in slavery for your entire life, your walking around with lots of ideas about how "freedom" is dangerous and it is better to accept the "security" of obeying the master. This also doesn't take in to account the emotional dimensions of trying to escape a prison.

That's why "freedom" is pretty much an illusion, since the common response in America is "love it or leave it." If you don't like living in our "free" society, then there's the door. You can always leave, but leave to where? That's the same choice that a slave would face, so there's really no difference, when you come right down to it.

That's predicated on the assumption that freedom is only ever the freedom of the individual. It means You are "free to chose" to be part of a society or to leave it. But Freedom is also a set of laws, institutions and values, which are shared amongst a people, country or state. When you are part of that kind of community, the individual has freedom only to the extent to which everyone has freedom. So it is necessary to assert what those freedoms are and come to some kind of agreement with other members of the community on what boundaries are necessary to limit freedom.
 

socharlie

Active Member
We live in a society that, generally, gives us a level of personal and political freedoms that many people in the world do not have. We often take these freedoms for granted as they become part of the background noise of our everyday life. However, Freedom is not the natural condition of mankind. Most of human history is characterised by tyranny and slavery. We may well believe that freedom is the product of a set of "inalienable rights" arising from god or nature, but these were still rights that had to be fought for. Our ancestors made enormous sacrifices to ensure that human dignity did in fact entail our rights. The tradition of freedom is not infinite and not eternal. It has finite limits and there are limits to its tolerance. Stretched beyond those limits, free societies are fragile and easily break. Functioning Democracies can easily become dictatorships and it can take generations for that process to be reversed. One of our greatest fears, expressed by authors such as George Orwell is that we may encounter dictatorships whose grip over the hearts and minds is so absolute, that there is no prospect of a reversal.

Liberty is not guaranteed but is an inheritance from one generation to another and it is up to each generation to renew its faith in personal liberty and to secure the institutions for the duration of brief its stewardship in government. Liberty is about more than individual wants. It is a common resources from which all of us can benefit. But when societies are driven only by self-interest, our common resources are degraded because people take advantage of them without putting something back to ensure that those resources continue for another generation.

What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?
the Golden Rule in our Hearts...IMO.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
To say that freedom is an illusion is to ignore history. My parents and their parents lived in the Pale, were restricted from where they could go and what professions they could pursue. They were attacked by bigots for being Jewish and so forth. They had no right of speech but neither did most people and no right of a fair trial. The list goes on.

The only thing my parents could do was to flee that environment and come to the USA. The USA had and has problems that are similar but by the standards of Eastern Europe in about 1900, we're infinitely freer today. And we're a lot freer than 1950's and earlier black oppression which reminds me totally of what my parents suffered.

From another frame-of-reference, we don't have perfect freedom but no one does. Even the ones who in the past left civilization for the wilderness were constrained by nature's laws.

What we have to do is first know history and understand its lessons. We have to continue the fight, in spite of the back and forth, for a more just world where the "four freedoms" especially from want and fear are more and more the condition of humanity.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"freedom" is pretty much an illusion, since the common response in America is "love it or leave it." If you don't like living in our "free" society, then there's the door. You can always leave, but leave to where?

Yet I feel that I have all of the freedom I can use. If you gave me more choices, I wouldn't opt for them. I can't see how that is an illusion.

Incidentally, we did leave America, 8 years ago, and ended up with more freedom than we left. For example, pot had been decriminalized in our new land, most prescriptions were OTC, and we were permitted to visit Cuba by the new government, but not by America.

That love it or leave it stuff doesn't have much sting any more, since leaving America is often a good option even if you love it. We live in a more functional culture with better prices than we left, and no snow or days over 90 degrees.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We live in a society that, generally, gives us a level of personal and political freedoms that many people in the world do not have. We often take these freedoms for granted as they become part of the background noise of our everyday life. However, Freedom is not the natural condition of mankind. Most of human history is characterised by tyranny and slavery. We may well believe that freedom is the product of a set of "inalienable rights" arising from god or nature, but these were still rights that had to be fought for. Our ancestors made enormous sacrifices to ensure that human dignity did in fact entail our rights. The tradition of freedom is not infinite and not eternal. It has finite limits and there are limits to its tolerance. Stretched beyond those limits, free societies are fragile and easily break. Functioning Democracies can easily become dictatorships and it can take generations for that process to be reversed. One of our greatest fears, expressed by authors such as George Orwell is that we may encounter dictatorships whose grip over the hearts and minds is so absolute, that there is no prospect of a reversal.

Liberty is not guaranteed but is an inheritance from one generation to another and it is up to each generation to renew its faith in personal liberty and to secure the institutions for the duration of brief its stewardship in government. Liberty is about more than individual wants. It is a common resources from which all of us can benefit. But when societies are driven only by self-interest, our common resources are degraded because people take advantage of them without putting something back to ensure that those resources continue for another generation.

What can we do to protect those free institutions and ensure they endure for the next generation?
I think it's a precarious mix of checks and balances. It's no secret who is the ruling class. It's anyone who essentially hits the hardest and is most feared that has the most power and control.

I think freedom is based upon a mix by which people Rule and are overthrown from rule by the masses.

I think a key to ensuring freedom for the longest time possible would be maintaining those levels of checks and balances that prevents the scales from tipping from one extreme to another.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's a really interesting point actually. Our dependence on Technology does make it much harder to be "free". It is debatable to what extent our current institutions reflect our technological capabilities in so far as what we are free to do now bears little resemblance to two hundred years ago. Even having a car today means we are "free" to travel faster than the founding fathers in horse back in 1776.

True, although having a car means one needs roads to travel on. Not to mention gas.

What makes you think "true freedom" is out in the wilderness?

Well, to get away from tyranny or slavery, one would have to go to an area where government jurisdiction is non-existent or extremely limited. Otherwise, your freedom is only a matter of what the government provides. Only through the good graces of others do we have freedom, which gives them the power to either grant or take away our freedom.


I know what you are getting at, but I think this is too abstract. In reality, its not simply a question of someone having the will power to be free, to run away and escape. If you've been in slavery for your entire life, your walking around with lots of ideas about how "freedom" is dangerous and it is better to accept the "security" of obeying the master. This also doesn't take in to account the emotional dimensions of trying to escape a prison.

I didn't say it was easy, only simple. Sure, people are raised and conditioned with certain ideals, such as a slave thinking their lives are better under slavery. It's much the same mentality when people claim that the US military protects us and keeps us safe. Same with how some people view the police and how they can do no wrong in some people's eyes. They have faith in the system.

I liked this dialog in Easy Rider, where the topic of "freedom" was brought up:


Billy: What the hell is wrong with freedom? That's what it's all about.

George Hanson: Oh, yeah, that's right. That's what's it's all about, all right. But talkin' about it and bein' it, that's two different things. I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. Of course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free, 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are. Oh, yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em.


As for escaping from prison, you're right. Prisons are designed to confine people, so there's no freedom in prison. But free societies like ours have plenty of prisons, just like any tyrannical society, so that's another similarity.

That's predicated on the assumption that freedom is only ever the freedom of the individual. It means You are "free to chose" to be part of a society or to leave it. But Freedom is also a set of laws, institutions and values, which are shared amongst a people, country or state. When you are part of that kind of community, the individual has freedom only to the extent to which everyone has freedom. So it is necessary to assert what those freedoms are and come to some kind of agreement with other members of the community on what boundaries are necessary to limit freedom.

Freedom might also be defined by equality before the law, as well as the idea that no one is above the law. No one should be granted special rights or privileges that the average citizen does not have. To do so would be a threat to freedom. The real difficult part is for the populace to remain vigilant enough to keep their freedom.

Getting people to agree in the first place might also be difficult, considering how people can be fickle, weak-willed, and sometimes quick to anger, leading to squabbling and bickering. Especially at local city council or school board meetings. I've been reading that a lot of politicians are growing resistant to town hall meetings, because of too many hecklers and disruptors. The internet also gets criticized, what with all the trolls, vitriol, hate, anger, etc. that inundate a lot of forums.

It's those kinds of conditions which lead to a loss of freedom, more than anything else. It's when people start squabbling just for the sake of squabbling - because they can't think of anything constructive to say or do. Sometimes I think RF is like that. ;)
 
Top