Renouncing Gospel of John

[Iymus]

Considering renouncing Gospel of John and Focusing on the Sypnotic Gospels or the books that early Christians such as Adoptionists, Ebionites and other Early Christians follow.

"to be quoted and continued below."

 

[Iymus]

Considering renouncing Gospel of John and Focusing on the Sypnotic Gospels or the books that early Christians such as Adoptionists, Ebionites and other Early Christians follow.

"to be quoted and continued below."

Reason being:

Much easier to prove the Father or Originator has been in heaven and is not a man.

At least 14 or so references talking about the Father being in heaven . Also a reference and instruction about not calling any man this specific Father "which is in heaven".

Simple Keyword Search of "which is in heaven"

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 5:45

Mat 5:48

Mat 6:1

Mat 6:9

Mat 7:11

Mat 7:21

Mat 10:32

Mat 10:33

Mat 12:50

Mat 16:17

Mat 18:10

Mat 18:14

Mat 18:10

Mat 18:19

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

"to be quoted and continued below."

 

[Iymus]

Considering renouncing Gospel of John and Focusing on the Sypnotic Gospels or the books that early Christians such as Adoptionists, Ebionites and other Early Christians follow.

"to be quoted and continued below."

Reason being:

Much easier to prove the Father or Originator has been in heaven and is not a man.

At least 14 or so references talking about the Father being in heaven . Also a reference and instruction about not calling any man this specific Father "which is in heaven".

Simple Keyword Search of "which is in heaven"

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Mat 5:45

Mat 5:48

Mat 6:1

Mat 6:9

Mat 7:11

Mat 7:21

Mat 10:32

Mat 10:33

Mat 12:50

Mat 16:17

Mat 18:10

Mat 18:14

Mat 18:10

Mat 18:19

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

"to be quoted and continued below."

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The words that Christ speak and the works that Christ doeth is of the will of the Father which is in him.

Also verse 12 talks about his disciples "which are men" doing the same works and even greater works because he go unto the Father which is in heaven; Not the Father or will of the Father in himself.

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

"to be quoted and continued below."

 

[shmogie]

Are you planning on doing this because you are an Arian?

 

[Iymus]

Are you planning on doing this because you are an Arian?

I am myself.

Reason being:

Much easier to prove the Father or Originator has been in heaven and is not a man.

 

[shmogie]

I am myself.

I have friends who are Arians, and I understand the concept very well.

You are going to have problems rejecting the book of John, I think.

The reason being that Early non Canonical letters, clearly establish that the Apostle John did in fact write his Gospel.

Further, I think Arians misunderstand the concept of the Godhead, as do Trinitarians.

To me, a simplistic explanation follows in this way. Bill Smith, has a son, John Smith, who has a son, Jeff smith, they are all Smiths, connected by genetic makeup, yet they are individuals as well.

In a patriarchy, the father is the final authority for the three.

The Godhead is in essence, a being, God, that has three individual points of Consciousness, all interconnected , yet able to to function separately and independently, all controlled by the dominant point, "the Father". In fact, the Biblical idea of the family is based on the makeup of God. The Father, is God, The Son is God, The Spirit is God.

The OT has verses that show the plurality of God, like in Genesis, " let US make them in OUR image".

We know from his own words that Christ was pre existent in Heaven before the incarnation.

That leaves us with whether Christ was created, as Trinitarians believe. There are no Biblical verses that address the issue directly, but I think not.

Both sides can interpret verses in the NT to support their side.

I am personally concerned about applying human logic to the discussion. We cannot logically understand God, or the things of Heaven. Human logic cannot apply, because it is human.

We must take the Bible for exactly what it says, without introducing our own logic, the Bible is not subject to human logic.

 

[Iymus]

You are going to have problems rejecting the book of John, I think.

not necessarily.

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

The Godhead is in essence, a being, God, that has three individual points of Consciousness, all interconnected , yet able to to function separately and independently, all controlled by the dominant point, "the Father". In fact, the Biblical idea of the family is based on the makeup of God. The Father, is God, The Son is God, The Spirit is God.

who is the possessor of heaven and earth?

The OT has verses that show the plurality of God, like in Genesis, " let US make them in OUR image".

made he him
male and female created he them.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

I am personally concerned about applying human logic to the discussion. We cannot logically understand God, or the things of Heaven. Human logic cannot apply, because it is human.

interesting

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

That leaves us with whether Christ was created, as Trinitarians believe. There are no Biblical verses that address the issue directly, but I think not.

Trinitarians do not believe he was created but

Before God our Father being God our Originator and Most High was no God formed, neither shall there be after him.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

[shmogie]

not necessarily.

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.



who is the possessor of heaven and earth?



made he him
male and female created he them.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.



interesting

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.



Trinitarians do not believe he was created but

Before God our Father being God our Originator and Most High was no God formed, neither shall there be after him.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I don't see any of the verses you have posted as establishing the Arian position.

 

[Iymus]

I don't see any of the verses you have posted as establishing the Arian position.

I said I am myself.

I am myself.

and I am saying The Father alone is the Most High and possessor of heaven and earth. His Holy Spirit and Only begotten are his possessions with the only begotten Son being his beginning of creation.

I don't see any of the verses you have posted as establishing the Arian position.

If possible tell me what the Arian position is then I might be able to establish it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have been on a similar search previously, trying to deduce an early Christian path hoping to find a pure way. This to me is a chasing after the wind, and I have stopped. James is, to me, the more clear expression of the ideas in John. The ancient Ebionites seem very argumentative and harsh. They seem to embody everything which goes wrong eventually with most churches, fighting and jousting for position, and arguing about what words are the proper ones. They were gone sooner probably because they were more argumentative. Argument empowers political factions in churches and enables church splits. The ebionites have a lot of problems with Paul, so they are all about excluding. I am glad they are gone, and I'll be glad when the creeds are denounced by all churches. I think that will surely lead to the coming of Christ, but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

 

[shmogie]

I said I am myself.



and I am saying The Father alone is the Most High and possessor of heaven and earth. His Holy Spirit and Only begotten are his possessions with the only begotten Son being his beginning of creation.



If possible tell me what the Arian position is then I might be able to establish it.

The Arian position as stated by the Bishop Arius, is that Christ is a created being, separate and distinct from the Father.

Christ was created first, then Christ created all that is.

Christ is not eternal, in that He was created, only God is eternal.

The Spirit is not a being, but rather is the power of God manifested.

In Christendom today, only the JW's adhere to the pure Arian belief.

 

[Iymus]

The Arian position as stated by the Bishop Arius, is that Christ is a created being, separate and distinct from the Father.

Christ was created first, then Christ created all that is.

Christ is not eternal, in that He was created, only God is eternal.

The Spirit is not a being, but rather is the power of God manifested.

Out of the four statements Arian statements I might be considered 80 to 90% Arian. Granted I believe the Holy Spirit is the power of God manifested but also a distinct and and separate being or possession of God.


Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

--------------

Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

To me, a simplistic explanation follows in this way. Bill Smith, has a son, John Smith, who has a son, Jeff smith, they are all Smiths, connected by genetic makeup, yet they are individuals as well.

In a patriarchy, the father is the final authority for the three.

The Godhead is in essence, a being, God, that has three individual points of Consciousness, all interconnected , yet able to to function separately and independently, all controlled by the dominant point, "the Father". In fact, the Biblical idea of the family is based on the makeup of God. The Father, is God, The Son is God, The Spirit is God.

The OT has verses that show the plurality of God, like in Genesis, " let US make them in OUR image".

Hi Schmogie,

But if asked how many Smith's are there? Your answer would be: Three

But regarding the Godhead - When asked how many God's are there? Your answer would be: One

You aren't consistent in the way you would answer, when regarding the Godhead.

 

[eik]

Further, I think Arians misunderstand the concept of the Godhead, as do Trinitarians.

To me, a simplistic explanation follows in this way. Bill Smith, has a son, John Smith, who has a son, Jeff smith, they are all Smiths, connected by genetic makeup, yet they are individuals as well.

In a patriarchy, the father is the final authority for the three.

The Godhead is in essence, a being, God, that has three individual points of Consciousness, all interconnected , yet able to to function separately and independently, all controlled by the dominant point, "the Father". In fact, the Biblical idea of the family is based on the makeup of God. The Father, is God, The Son is God, The Spirit is God.

I would say the biblical idea of spiritual authority within the family is based on the makeup of God. The family itself is flesh and blood and only seeds to be germinated and harvested. The whole spiritual family including the saints is the antetype of the human family.

The OT has verses that show the plurality of God, like in Genesis, " let US make them in OUR image".

I don't this this is correct. God is one Deut 6:4. The Word of God wasn't revealed as a distinguishable entity from God the Father in the OT. More likely the plurality is refering also to the angels in Council.

 

[EsonauticSage]

The reason being that Early non Canonical letters, clearly establish that the Apostle John did in fact write his Gospel.

But that's not possible given that it is not written in 1st person tense and John 20:30-31 doesn't leave room for that view.