1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Remembering 9/11

Discussion in 'The Political World' started by sun rise, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:33 PM.

  1. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    35,817
    Ratings:
    +13,389
    Religion:
    Love
    Those of us who lived through the 9/11 attacks will have emotional resonance with that day and what followed. It led me personally in several directions.

    One was unquestioned support for taking out the terrorist safe-haven in Afghanistan and giving hope to those repressed and terrorized by the fanatics there and elsewhere. This is another venue of what JFK referred to as a "long, twilight struggle" - then against communist oppression and now against terrorists of every stripe.

    And by extension the struggle is about those who would use intolerance and the emotions of fear and hatred to attack others. It is an existential struggle about the bigotry that leads to first labeling peaceful groups as evil and then attacking them.

    9/11 also led me to learn quite a bit about Islam and how it's practiced today. That involved reading histories, the writings of various Islamic scholars, how Islamic Sufis understand Islam and so forth. It explicitly involved seeing how various people and groups found what they were looking for in the Islamic scripture. Those who wanted to find a peaceful religion practiced by millions who just wanted to be left alone to live their lives found that Islam teaches that. Those who want to find justification for darkness, both terrorists and anti-Islam bigots, found that.

    And I look back to how our President, George W. Bush, responded to the attacks. His words and deeds were models of what a President should say and do when there's dark events like 9/11:

    America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.


    And, at other times:

    "America rejects bigotry. We reject every act of hatred against people of Arab background or Muslim faith America values and welcomes peaceful people of all faiths -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and many others. Every faith is practiced and protected here, because we are one country. Every immigrant can be fully and equally American because we're one country. Race and color should not divide us, because America is one country."

    (and)
    "This new enemy seeks to destroy our freedom and impose its views. We value life; the terrorists ruthlessly destroy it. We value education; the terrorists do not believe women should be educated or should have health care, or should leave their homes. We value the right to speak our minds; for the terrorists, free expression can be grounds for execution. We respect people of all faiths and welcome the free practice of religion; our enemy wants to dictate how to think and how to worship even to their fellow Muslims."
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 2
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    37,447
    Ratings:
    +4,168
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I think that it is good of you to remember @sun rise. Thanks for sharing those very fine words.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +3,406
    Like the invasion of Iraq? Didn't peg you as a fan.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
  4. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    149,899
    Ratings:
    +42,134
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Aye, Dubya really scrooed the pooch in his response.
    He made too many people feel a sense of community
    & shared purpose.....to go to endless spendy deadly war.

    Remember 9/11....but especially the failed policies
    leading up to it....& subsequent wrongful reactions.

    9/11 was the carnage between the 2 bigger tragedies.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  5. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +3,406
    Ageed
    Commemorating 9/11 and admiring a president who caused a full out invasion that resulted in 100,000 Iraqi deaths is deeply politically slanted (and that's the conservative estimate.)
     
  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    149,899
    Ratings:
    +42,134
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    Although, Iraqi deaths might've actually been reduced relative to 'peacetime' Iraq.
    Nat Geo had an article some time ago, wherein it was estimated that he killed
    around 17K people/month. A friend is an Iraqi ex-apat, who moved here because
    his friends were being disappeared.
    Nonetheless, the invasion was a horrendous thing, & devastating to our economy.
     
  7. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,456
    Ratings:
    +3,406
    I find this really hard to believe, I could not find the article you're referencing.
    However I did find a Nat geo article claiming the deaths were closer to 500,000 total when people who died due to the relative decline in public health.
     
  8. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    803
    Ratings:
    +475
    Religion:
    Loving Kindness
    I feel a lot of emotions over 9/11. Mostly I feel sadness and outrage that ordinary people of goodwill, American and Arab, became pawns in a terrible game. A game which never stands plainly revealed.

    For me, as an Australian, it has echos of Gallipoli, remembered here as ANZAC day. (Australian NewZealand Army Corps).

    Gallipoli was a tragedy of mismanagement which resulted in an invasion in entirely the wrong place. Our young men came ashore on a beach below a cliff face, with the Turks entrenched on the high ground. They were cut down in great numbers, and had no option but to continue.

    There was no cause for celebrating anything glorious. But like 9/11, it serves as a reminder to not take human life so lightly.

    Like Gallipoli, the US soldiers were put in harms way, and died in great numbers, in entirely the wrong places, for the wrong reasons.

    The terrorists were from Saudi Arabia.

    No US troops ever entered Saudi Arabia.

    There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

    The Afghanis had nothing whatsoever to do with the WTC attack.

    It is a seriously sad and solemn day. So many innocent US civilians died, under circumstances still shrouded in mystery.
    Subsequently, tens of thousands of US servicemen died in a war which had nothing to do with the WTC tragedy.

    And let us not forget, possibly a half million Iraqis died. Mostly ordinary people like you, like the Americans who died in the WTC.

    This is way too serious an event to be treated in a patriotic jingoistic way. A huge crime against humanity was committed, and to carry out that crime, the patriotic emotions of the American people were ruthlessly manipulated for reasons you do not and may not ever understand.

    9/11 is a call to vigilance. It is a reminder that the understandable feelings of grief, and of patriotic loyalty, can be wielded like a weapon to the detriment of ordinary people. Like us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    149,899
    Ratings:
    +42,134
    Religion:
    Bokononism
    I couldn't locate it either.
    But consider his attacks upon the Kurds & Shiites.
    And of course it's not verifiable, but my friend's description
    of the domestic killings would explain the high number.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Born-again Glompist
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    18,687
    Ratings:
    +9,281
    Religion:
    Metal
    The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq remain among the most inhumane, criminal, and major-scale acts of abuse in at least the last five decades. George W. Bush exploited 9/11 to launch a war for oil and interventionism more than anything else.

    We are talking about someone who should have been tried for war crimes, not the owner of "models of what a President should say and do when there's dark events like 9/11."
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  11. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    35,817
    Ratings:
    +13,389
    Religion:
    Love
    I did not say Iraq, only Afghanistan. That was something different and distracted us from finishing the job in Afghanistan.
     
  12. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    35,817
    Ratings:
    +13,389
    Religion:
    Love
    Maybe I should have stated my opposition to much that he did as President, most actually. I can approve of a couple of his actions without approving of the rest of them. The world to me is often a very unsatisfying shade of grey.
     
Loading...