Religious Truth And The Jehovah's Witnesses

[YoursTrue]

At this point I feel I should in form the reader that the Watchtower strictly forbids it's members to consult the writings or spoken testimony of any apostate of the organization. This term applies to anyone who was formerly a baptized publisher in that organization and left, then to criticize or speak out against their former organization. So, while they can discuss criticisms with us, they can't discuss them with former members. Or at least they are not supposed to. So, I've decided it would be improper and disrespectful of me to post any videos with Raymond Franz, who was on the Governing Body until charges of apostasy resulted in him leaving and writing 2 books on his experiences. There are other videos on YouTube I would recommend to the non JW but won't be posting here.



True, but the apostles were around for nearly 100 years, the last 60 or so, depending upon how old they were when becoming apostles and how long they lived, didn't change their policy which had resulted in thousands of people, many of them children, dying or going to prison unnecessarily.



[Shakes head and sighs] Terrible. The Presiding Overseer (PO) of the congregation where I live at the time I first studied had a wife who, the time of which you speak, needed a kidney transplant. She didn't get one because the Watchtower had concluded that organ transplants were, to Jehovah, the same as cannibalism. Thousands of people died. You've been in the truth since about 1973 so you would have seen some of this happening to your brothers and sisters . Then the Watchtower changed it's policy and h is wife was put on a list of transplant. Too late. She died.

When I stopped studying the first time it's because I got an Awake! magazine in the mail with pictures of young children who were JW's and had lost their lives due to refusing blood transfusions. I asked the PO if he could tell me absolutely for sure that by joining their organization I wasn't condoning the unnecessary death of children like this in vain, and he rightly told me he could not.

Now, I would have disagreed with their position on organ transplants from the start, because there was no scriptural basis for it, but I don't necessarily disagree with their position on blood transfusions. I do disagree that it is their place to make those sort of decisions resulting in life or death or impacting the lives to such a degree as the things we are covering in this thread.



This, dear reader, is the real Jehovah's Witnesses' brotherly love. Not the fake "love bombing" they practice on you when you're fresh meat, but when you have become one of them. I was born in the year 1966, the year the Watchtower began implying that 1975 would be the end. I remember around that time the JWs visiting my mom warning her of the impending doom and the need to join and I remember the newspaper and television news stories. Here is a clip from the Watchtower of 1966.

"Does God's rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of Gods rest day come to an end? The year 1975. It means that within a relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the "time of the end"." Awake! 1966 Oct 8 pp.19-20

I don't know if this is from an apostate site, but there is more on 1975 here. Sure sounds like false prophets to me. You be the judge.



Do you? How much time do you spend on this forum and how much in service? And what about the time from the death of the apostle John on Patmos about 100 C.E. to the arrival of Charles Taze Russell in 1879? Jehovah had decided that he didn't need an "earthly organization" and preaching work at that time?



Indeed.



No, I don't. Did the prophets of old who spoke out against Jehovah's organization, on his behalf, feel like hypocrites? You asked me how it came to be that my thinking is much like yours? Because freely the Watchtower gave to me I truthfully answered. Do you then expect me to lie on their behalf or to tell the truth in the wrongdoing I see? This is a difficult thing for you to accept because you see the Watchtower as Jehovah's. Jehovah don't need for me to lie or cover up his error, and you know this, so the criticisms I have for the organization come from the weaknesses of the imperfect people therein. You have to more clearly make that distinction.



John the Baptist, Enoch and Melchizedek, like many of Jehovah's prophets, were somewhat isolated in circumstances not unlike my own.

The important thing for those who really understand these things is preaching the good news of God's kingdom and what it will do for mankind.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I would never be a JW because I find them opposed to science and from careful examination of science I find it’s methods quite reasonable.

That’s a blanket statement, which is just not accurate.

We do not agree with Common Descent, but do accept evolution that follows the empirical, scientific method. And we are not YEC’s.

Here are some Jehovah’s Witnesses who are scientists......this information comes from @RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha (thanks, Rothschild):


(All of them believe the flood was quite real and organic evolution [CD] isn't.)


Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig, has done scientific work dealing with genetic mutation in plants for the past 30 years, for 21 of those years with the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research in Cologne, Germany. Also an elder in the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.


Byron Leon Meadows works at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the field of laser physics. He is currently involved in the development of technology to improve the ability to monitor global climate, weather and other planetary phenomena. Also an elder in the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.


Kenneth Lloyd Tanaka is a geologist employed by the U.S. Geological Survey of Flagstaff, Arizona. For 30 years doing work in scientific research in various fields of geology including planetary geology. He has had dozens of research articles and geologic maps of Mars published in accredited scientific journals. One of Jehovah’s Witnesses, he also spends about 70 hours every month promoting Bible reading.


Paula Kincheloe has several years of experience as a researcher in the fields of cell and molecular biology and microbiology. In addition to studies in DNA, RNA, proteins, and metabolic pathways; she is also a JW, and a volunteer Bible instructor for Russian speaking communities.


Enrique Hernandez-Lemus is a full time minister with Jehovah’s Witnesses and also a theoretical physicist working at the National University of Mexico. His secular work involves finding a thermodynamically feasible explanation for the phenomenon known as gravothermal catastrophe, a mechanism of star growth. He has also worked with the complexity in DNA sequences.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you then expect me to lie on their behalf or to tell the truth in the wrongdoing I see? This is a difficult thing for you to accept because you see the Watchtower as Jehovah's. Jehovah don't need for me to lie or cover up his error, and you know this, so the criticisms I have for the organization come from the weaknesses of the imperfect people therein. You have to more clearly make that distinction.

I’m not going to get in this with you, but what did King David do, with the anointed Saul? He bided his time, letting Jehovah handle it.

You seem to be like the slave, ‘beating his brothers’! And you seem to be forgetting, where you learned these Truths, which as Daniel wrote would only be understood in the ‘Time of the End’.

So - long.

 

[Earthling]

I’m not going to get in this with you, but what did King David do, with the anointed Saul? He bided his time, letting Jehovah handle it.

You seem to be like the slave, ‘beating his brothers’! And you seem to be forgetting, where you learned these Truths, which as Daniel wrote would only be understood in the ‘Time of the End’.

So - long.

I understand your not getting into it with me, and you make a good point with David and Saul, but I would like to correct you on me forgetting where I learned these truths. I don't and have expressed my admiration and respect for the Jehovah's Witnesses. This doesn't mean I overlook their errors any more than I have my own.

Religious people tend to take criticism of their religion in a hyper sensitive way, especially JWs because they equate the organization with Jehovah and themselves simultaneously.

 

[Earthling]

In your opinion.....it's yours to have and to hold, if that is what you want to believe. Jehovah will never override your free will.

No, it's not my opinion. You are not a 1st Century Christian. You are not, nor am I, a person to whom the Bible is addressed. The Bible was written in a specific time and place to a specific people at various times and places. For us to use as an example. So Moses' situation was different that Peter's.

Organ transplants were not safe in the early days.

Vaccinations are a personal choice....I would not touch them personally, but that is based on how unsafe I believe they are.

Higher education leads to what? More happiness, better possessions, less stress.....seriously, what is the point of joining the dogs eating the other dogs. We are happy to earn a living, pursuing goals that don't place material pursuits above spiritual ones. Jesus certainly set the example in this. None of the 12 apostles were educated men.....because knowledge often leads to pride and just being Jewish was a handicap enough, especially when there was a constant argument among them over who was the greatest. Jesus never concentrated on wealth, but on serving God. (1 Timothy 6:6-8)

I may agree with you on these issues, but I don't agree with the idea that Jehovah appointed anyone to make important decisions on them on his behalf. Spirituality is a personal responsibility. The society changed their position on those issues. After having needlessly imposing their personal opinion dramatically affecting thousands of peoples lives and this begs the question, did Jehovah do that? You can't say Jehovah directly runs your organization and then claim human imperfection for it's mistakes.

Jehovah was with King David, no doubt about it, but David listened to Nathan (2 Samuel 12:1-14)

Neutrality? Surely you cannot suggest that Jesus would support nationalism and everything that goes with it? After the diaspora, Jews no longer exclusively occupied their God-given land. Jesus' Jewish and gentile disciples were from a wide range of nations, who left their nationalism and false religious beliefs behind when they were baptized into Christ. Becoming a citizen of God's kingdom means pleading allegiance to that kingdom alone. Christians therefore have no worldly national attachments.....so they will be "no part of this world" (John 15:18-21; John 18:36) just as Jesus told them to be.

Exactly. The original position of the Watchtower was that Witnesses could serve as contentious objectors, in non combat positions to keep from going to prison for refusing to fight. A group of Witnesses called the Standfasters disagreed with the society and were disfellowsipped. The society changed their policy by WWII to that of the Standfasters. They were never reinstated.

When you study the history of the Watchtower you see a very simple pattern. Human opinion elevated to divine status often causing people to lose their lives or spend many years in prisons.

As for child molestation, tell me please how you keep people like that out of our congregations? They are good con artists, and we are trusting.....they groom the people they befriend and pretend to be "a brother" to them and their children.

Obey the law of the country you live in! Call the police immediately! By covering it up and dealing with it internally you create a haven for the repeat offender.

 

[danieldemol]

That’s a blanket statement, which is just not accurate.

We do not agree with Common Descent, but do accept evolution that follows the empirical, scientific method. And we are not YEC’s.

Common descent does follow the empirical scientific method

 

[Deeje]

@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha I think we see a clear agenda here. When did we ever claim to be perfect? Your rhetoric is typical of the anti-JW propaganda that floods the internet. Twisted with the same tired misrepresentations that were no doubt of the sort used against the first Christians. (Matthew 5:11) Satan has no new tactics. Nothing works better in his favour than a 'blinded mind'. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) What better way to blind the mind than to highlight only the negative.

Anyone who sees themselves in the role of Melchizedek is basically adopting in the role of Jesus Christ. Is that really how you see yourself? Or citing John the Baptist, whom the Jews recognised as a prophet....is that how you want to portray yourself? .....there are no "lone rangers" in Jehovah's purpose in this period of time.
After Jesus had educated Paul, he too joined the other apostles in carrying out his preaching campaigns.

I see that you acknowledge the truth about what JW's teach.....but unless we are a baptized Christian, with "brothers and sisters" with whom we meet regularly, we are outside of the 'ark'. (1 Peter 3:18-21)
We cannot be Christians in deliberate isolation from others because we think we know better. Humility doesn't allow that. (Hebrews 10:24-25) And we cannot feed at Jehovah's table if we reject the ones serving the food. (Matthew 24:45)

How can a person steal their beliefs from those they appear to despise, whilst attempting to take "the good news of the kingdom" to all the world, all by themselves, downgrading and slandering the very ones who gave them the truth in the first place. Now it's my turn to shake my head.

We all have to appreciate what the difference is between a sheep and a goat. The criteria is clear....we have to assist Christ's "brothers"....but we first have to identify them. They don't have to be any more perfect than Jesus own apostles....average men doing the best they can.

I find your attitude rather peculiar as you seem to demand more from these men, than Jehovah does.....he has tolerated his servants' imperfections down through history whilst correcting them.....and forgiving them, which you seem to find impossible to do.

If you believe that you can remain separate from Jehovah's "people" and still be on the spiritual 'ark' then I believe you are sadly mistaken. There is no other global body of Christians on this planet who have consistently obeyed the command of Jesus to preach the good news of God's kingdom "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" (Matthew 24:14) and that is what we should be focussed on.....not the negative things of the past.

The judge will sort all that out.....or don't you trust him?

 

[YoursTrue]

I understand your not getting into it with me, and you make a good point with David and Saul, but I would like to correct you on me forgetting where I learned these truths. I don't and have expressed my admiration and respect for the Jehovah's Witnesses. This doesn't mean I overlook their errors any more than I have my own.

Religious people tend to take criticism of their religion in a hyper sensitive way, especially JWs because they equate the organization with Jehovah and themselves simultaneously.

A person MIGHT say that, but I don't think the Governing Body equates itself with Jehovah. As per the organization. Furthermore, my study conductor never hid the fact from me that the brothers (in the lead positions) have made mistakes, that the friends got all excited over 1975. Also, later on, after I was baptized, I learned to my surprise (because no one told me about it, even though I was a pioneer and active with the congregation -- not pioneering today but still actively spreading the good news of God's incoming kingdom with as many as possible) that there were those who fell away because somehow they thought the end was coming in 1990. I have no idea why anyone thought that, but that's what I heard.
I do agree that if one assails a religion it is almost as if they are assailing the persons themselves. People usually take it VERY personally.
PLUS -- I was thinking about your comments -- let's take David's case. He knew he sinned (finally) with Bathsheba. But those who loved and respected David, did they keep bringing up his sin to him? So let's transfer that to today, as in a friendship. Let's say one of the friends made a serious mistake, but changed his ways. Would a good friend keep reminding him of that, over and over again? What would the point be. And to repeatedly reprove a person who does not respond for an error is foolishness on the one that chastises. The brothers have responded to correction. And I believe that correction is from Jehovah Himself. Even if the light is still not as clear as it might be later on, but that is something I am very grateful for.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You can't say Jehovah directly runs your organization and then claim human imperfection for it's mistakes.

Again, I refer you to ancient Israel. Jehovah had their history and disobedience recorded, for a reason. (Romans 15:4) Don’t let the import be lost on you.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Common descent does follow the empirical scientific method

Empirical?! How? It’s only guesses! That is a fact!

 

[YoursTrue]

Common descent does follow the empirical scientific method

It doesn't? And what I find interesting is that the idea of genetic change is becoming more pronounced by scientists as time goes by. It makes absolute sense that we all generate from two ancestors, one male and one female.