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Religious Trauma Syndrom and Toxic Religion

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
heres a poem i wrote of Southern baptists...tell me do you find this accurate of the typical southern baptist church? It was how the church i went was like...

Are you the lowest of the low?
Knee deep in sin...
Do you have a hole in your heart?
You are in need of saving,
Of Jesus's healing...
Once we baptize you,
Welcome to the church.
We are all equals here
Made in God's image
But the women do not lead they are not pastors,
And husbands rule over their wives
For Eve was made from Adam,
And tempted him to sin.

A literal interpetation,
Do you have any doubts?
Do you question do you wonder?
Once saved always saved,
If you ever faltered, lead astray,
Then you never truly believed.
So dont ask your questions,
Follow the pastor,
Or there will be fire and brimstone...

Us against them mentality,
Perscution everywhere...
Do not trust unbelievers,
For they are unhappy.
They will always be unhappy without God.
Unless they turn away from sin,
And honor Christ.

When the end comes,
Be ready.
When the end comes,
God will establish his kingdom.
Then all will know the truth
Dont be on the wrong side,
Dont want to be left behind...
This is our hope,
To convert the masses,
Before the end comes.
Accurate, but it's not just women as they don't like black people either, and they weren't happy when aparthy was ended in Africa, just as they weren't happy with African-Americans gaining their freedoms, be it on paper or by enforcement.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Among mental health professionals, there is a form of trauma that is recognized and treated. It is called Religious Trauma Syndrome. You can read more about this here: Religious trauma syndrome - Wikipedia

My question surrounds the origins of this pathology, which is basically a toxic religious envirnoment. We would all agree that religions like People's Temple (Jonestown) and the Branch Dividians (Waco) were dangerous toxic religions. But what exactly is it that makes a religion toxic? What exactly is it that it harming the psyches of so many people? Where is the dividing line between a religion that is correlated with mental health, and one that destroys it?

I'll start with a few ideas and you can agree or disagree and perhaps add your own criteria.

  • A charismatic authoritarian leader
  • Suppression of questions
  • Use of fear to keep people in line (shunning, hell)
  • Members are required to hold a narrow, rigid set of beliefs
  • Suspicion and disdain for those outside the faith
  • Literal interpretation of religious text
  • Undo control over the lives of members

I believe the highlighted ones describe the JWs. The last one I included because of indoctrination which appears to be brainwashing to me. The sad thing is that when people realize this, the trauma often sets them against Christianity as well.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
That well sums up any Southern Baptist church I've been to. My last one even threw away literature in the church library if the author was of a different denomination. Amd I can personally attest that nightmares of going to Hell are terrifying and leave a long-lasting impression, and all the damnation, threats of damnation and mountain of stressors from such rigid expectations are just no good for anyone to grow up with, especially as it's prone to leading to self hatred, low self esteem and a lack of confidence (it's all "god's" doing because we're all lowly worms).

I believe a person with Cancer is traumatized also but at least they try to find a cure. We have a cure for hell but some people would prefer the trauma.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I believe a person with Cancer is traumatized also but at least they try to find a cure. We have a cure for hell but some people would prefer the trauma.
Saying you have a cure for a problem you create is called extortion. The mob often likes this, calling it things like being paid for protection, but it protection from their own thugs.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Among mental health professionals, there is a form of trauma that is recognized and treated. It is called Religious Trauma Syndrome. You can read more about this here: Religious trauma syndrome - Wikipedia

My question surrounds the origins of this pathology, which is basically a toxic religious envirnoment. We would all agree that religions like People's Temple (Jonestown) and the Branch Dividians (Waco) were dangerous toxic religions. But what exactly is it that makes a religion toxic? What exactly is it that it harming the psyches of so many people? Where is the dividing line between a religion that is correlated with mental health, and one that destroys it?

I'll start with a few ideas and you can agree or disagree and perhaps add your own criteria.

  • A charismatic authoritarian leader
  • Suppression of questions
  • Use of fear to keep people in line (shunning, hell)
  • Members are required to hold a narrow, rigid set of beliefs
  • Suspicion and disdain for those outside the faith
  • Literal interpretation of religious text
  • Undo control over the lives of members

I believe as a person attending an SBC church I can answer whether any of those fit.

As far as I know the convention has never had a single leader. I think Stanley is probably one but there are probably others.

The SBC does not suppress questions. As a heretic, I am still in good standing with my church.

Hell is never a problem for a believer so it is the unbeliever who finds this teaching difficult.

As in questions the answer is the same for different beliefs within the confines of Christianity of course. As long as one is saved that is what counts.

Suspicion of other faiths probably happen with every religious group. I wouldn't call it extreme in ours.

SBC has been known for literalism but since no-one is held to it I don't see that it matters much.

I believe one must act very badly to be disciplined by the church.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Saying you have a cure for a problem you create is called extortion. The mob often likes this, calling it things like being paid for protection, but it protection from their own thugs.

I believe the problem is sin. Hell is also a cure. It eliminates from society those who prefer sin.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I believe the problem is sin. Hell is also a cure. It eliminates from society those who prefer sin.
Wow. You are really saying that in a thread about trauma regarding things like Hell and damnation?
It's cold. It's calloused. It's tone deaf. But thank you for your service in helping to kill Christianity by affirming the image Christians themselves are often hypocrites and nasty people. After all, good people don't down play and dismiss the suffering of another and will listen instead of insisting the source of trauma is the cure for the trauma.
And to point out, those challenging the idea if religous trauma aren't even on the same page as those actually engaged in the topic.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
My experience with fundamentalist, evangelical, and pentecostal groups (while limited) is that there isn't a whole lot of emphasis on the words in that book of the Jesus they claim to worship. Lots of quoting Paul, though.
I remember then quoting Jesus a lot. A fair deal about that brotherly love thing, but especially that eternal darkness, fiery furnace, wailing and gnashing of teeth parts.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe the highlighted ones describe the JWs. The last one I included because of indoctrination which appears to be brainwashing to me. The sad thing is that when people realize this, the trauma often sets them against Christianity as well.
I agree. My complaint is not about JW theology (I disagree agreeably with them), but about the toxic way it treats its members.
 

idea

Question Everything
It's not a different order of magnitude but an entirely different issue, different subject, different ball game and different ball park.
Learning Santa will never be anything like a grieving child being told a beloved family member who recently passed is now being tortures forever and all eternity without end in a giant lake of fire.

It also requires attempting to understand those you are communicating with and synchronizing up with topics. You have not made an effort to do this but instead insist the topic is akin to learning Santa isn't real (and I'll point out again is rude and dismissive) and somehow got this idea we're talking about atheism and nihilism amd tried to insert it into the topic. And instead of a simple "my bad" and getting on topic you put forth this little bit if garbage:

I see from your posts you are used to talking with a different crowd.

I often find myself communicating with believers, in which case it is best to take indirect routes which avoid causing someone to feel defensive.

In religious groups, there are socially accepted problems (like getting cancer, car accident, floods, etc), and not acceptable problems (abuse). Social groups with authoritarian male heirarchies turn against anyone who questions, or accuses the heirarchy. If someone accused your dad/husband/brother/grandfather/beloved teacher/beloved bishop of child abuse - how would you react to them? The predator is often protected, victim blaming is real, you are up against pretty much the entire congregation -

Trauma from religious abuse
Trauma from changing beliefs, not believing in god/Santa anymore. Multiple types of religious trauma.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I see from your posts you are used to talking with a different crowd.

I often find myself communicating with believers, in which case it is best to take indirect routes which avoid causing someone to feel defensive.

In religious groups, there are socially accepted problems (like getting cancer, car accident, floods, etc), and not acceptable problems (abuse). Social groups with authoritarian male heirarchies turn against anyone who questions, or accuses the heirarchy. If someone accused your dad/husband/brother/grandfather/beloved teacher/beloved bishop of child abuse - how would you react to them? The predator is often protected, victim blaming is real, you are up against pretty much the entire congregation -

Trauma from religious abuse
Trauma from changing beliefs, not believing in god/Santa anymore. Multiple types of religious trauma.
The whole Santa thing is rubbish. It's not at all comparable.
And I've not heard of a great wave of trauma that ex-Christians go through. Most of them don't even become atheist, with many turning to a form of neo-Paganism and worshipping other gods.
Your bringing up cancer and car wrecks shows a reluctance to acknowledge the unique ways religion can abuse and traumatize.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Do you believe God wrote the bible?

It's all just words of people, opinions of people.
Doesn't matter. Such passages are in the Bible and are a part of the abuse and trauma. People defending it is just more dismissing the pain and trauma.
 

idea

Question Everything
Quite a few compare belief in God to belief in Santa, belief in the flying spaghetti monster, belief in unicorns, Zeus, you name it. Trauma is created through rejection from community, rejection from family, judgement from a community. (I know, I've been rejected, had to find my new "tribe"). I don't want to lose my family over this though, want to be one of those people who is able to talk with anyone regardless of their beliefs - religious/political/cultural - I want everyone to feel comfortable around me. Even though I am now an atheist, I still talk with my very devout parents, in-laws, and all family members. Communicating with a believer means finding something in common - their defenses will go up with god, but they will talk about santa:

Santa & God
Jesus and St Nick - both historical figures that probably really did exist
children taught to believe in both at a young age
both are supposed to be loving, caring people - who reward "good" acts
rituals for both, write a letter to santa/pray to god
miracles - flying sled, false promises of giving presents to everyone
songs, stories, holidays around both of them
warm fuzzies / excitement / magical to believe in each - a source of hope
Is it a choice to believe/not believe in sSanta? to believe/not believe in god? to believe/not believe in unicorns?

Increased understanding through talking things out - I don't need my parents to change their beliefs, just to be considerate of my LGBTQ kiddo, and understanding when we do not attend church etc. For them to be understanding, to decrease my own isolation means using parables - like talking about santa. If they can understand it's not a "choice" for me, I have not "fallen into sin", if they can stop judging and see a new side to it, my own pain will be less. For religious trauma, unfortunately, the victim has to be stronger than the persecutors - believers, it is a mental illness. I will fight against shunning, against ex-communication, against turned backs by talking concepts through in simple terms - like santa. It is what has worked for me.

I understand everyone isn't going to make an effort to reach out to family, to include everyone of different beliefs. It just feels like - I would be a hypocrite - hypocritical to know the pain of being shunned and misjudged, and turn around and do the same to them. I will not shun anyone, will try to communicate at a level we agree on (we agree on santa) and minimize judging by communicating my beliefs - about things like LGBTQ - as they communicate theirs. We are social creatures, need family, need community. For me, it is worth the effort to connect with those who unknowingly traumatize others.

Communication is working.
Rise of the nones - people are leaving Christianity at unprecedented numbers, leaving all the fundamentalist craziness.
Love, kindness, communication (rather than shunning, avoiding, silence) - this is what will create a better new world.

Lost god, find your own inner strength, then be the light you needed in the world, and change the world one person at a time. Life is given purpose and meaning through helping others, leaving a better world for the next generation and all that. Yes, atheists have lives filled with Meaning and Purpose too :)
 

idea

Question Everything
I believe one must act very badly to be disciplined by the church.

The church doesn't discipline pedophiles.

The church blames victims, disciplines women for not keeping the house clean, blames wives if their husband is unfaithful, blames mothers and daughters if husband abuses his children.

The church doesn't discipline men.
It disciplines women.
Bow your head, submit to your husband, if you are thin enough, pretty enough, obedient enough - if you women are good enough your husband will have no need to rape his children.
 

Sedim Haba

Outa here... bye-bye!
The church doesn't discipline pedophiles.

The church blames victims, disciplines women for not keeping the house clean, blames wives if their husband is unfaithful, blames mothers and daughters if husband abuses his children.

The church doesn't discipline men.
It disciplines women.
Bow your head, submit to your husband, if you are thin enough, pretty enough, obedient enough - if you women are good enough your husband will have no need to rape his children.

Ouch!

(But, isn't that ALL Abrahamic faiths?)
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Quite a few compare belief in God to belief in Santa, belief in the flying spaghetti monster, belief in unicorns, Zeus, you name it. Trauma is created through rejection from community, rejection from family, judgement from a community. (I know, I've been rejected, had to find my new "tribe"). I don't want to lose my family over this though, want to be one of those people who is able to talk with anyone regardless of their beliefs - religious/political/cultural - I want everyone to feel comfortable around me. Even though I am now an atheist, I still talk with my very devout parents, in-laws, and all family members. Communicating with a believer means finding something in common - their defenses will go up with god, but they will talk about santa:

Santa & God
Jesus and St Nick - both historical figures that probably really did exist
children taught to believe in both at a young age
both are supposed to be loving, caring people - who reward "good" acts
rituals for both, write a letter to santa/pray to god
miracles - flying sled, false promises of giving presents to everyone
songs, stories, holidays around both of them
warm fuzzies / excitement / magical to believe in each - a source of hope
Is it a choice to believe/not believe in sSanta? to believe/not believe in god? to believe/not believe in unicorns?

Increased understanding through talking things out - I don't need my parents to change their beliefs, just to be considerate of my LGBTQ kiddo, and understanding when we do not attend church etc. For them to be understanding, to decrease my own isolation means using parables - like talking about santa. If they can understand it's not a "choice" for me, I have not "fallen into sin", if they can stop judging and see a new side to it, my own pain will be less. For religious trauma, unfortunately, the victim has to be stronger than the persecutors - believers, it is a mental illness. I will fight against shunning, against ex-communication, against turned backs by talking concepts through in simple terms - like santa. It is what has worked for me.

I understand everyone isn't going to make an effort to reach out to family, to include everyone of different beliefs. It just feels like - I would be a hypocrite - hypocritical to know the pain of being shunned and misjudged, and turn around and do the same to them. I will not shun anyone, will try to communicate at a level we agree on (we agree on santa) and minimize judging by communicating my beliefs - about things like LGBTQ - as they communicate theirs. We are social creatures, need family, need community. For me, it is worth the effort to connect with those who unknowingly traumatize others.

Communication is working.
Rise of the nones - people are leaving Christianity at unprecedented numbers, leaving all the fundamentalist craziness.
Love, kindness, communication (rather than shunning, avoiding, silence) - this is what will create a better new world.

Lost god, find your own inner strength, then be the light you needed in the world, and change the world one person at a time. Life is given purpose and meaning through helping others, leaving a better world for the next generation and all that. Yes, atheists have lives filled with Meaning and Purpose too :)
We aren't, for probably the dozenth time, talking about a loss of faith but being traumatized by faith.
 
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idea

Question Everything
Ouch!

(But, isn't that ALL Abrahamic faiths?)

It's all male hierarchy organizations.

For everyone in this situation out there, know your church will NOT protect you, it will protect itself. You will need a detective, judge, and jury who are atheists if you want to convict a pedophile.

Any therapist provided by the church - is there to convince victims they were wrong, and the church is wonderful. Do NOT accept any 'help' from the church.

Everyone you thought was there to protect/support/help you - think again. They will all turn against you. They will not testify for you in court. They will support the pedophile. They will sadly look at you, feel sorry for you, but they will feel more sorry for the pedophile. The pedophile will be provided support groups. The pedophile will be hugged.

They will visit the pedophile in prison, they will NOT visit you.

They will quickly forgive and throw their arms around the pedophile.
They will not 'forgive' you for protecting your children. You will be shunned, hated, avoided for protecting your kids.

This is not some made up scenario, it is what happened to me. Life long *friends*. gone. what that congregation did was almost worst than the pedophile.
 
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