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Religious Predators

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Recently I experienced the loss of my father. He died peacefully in a nursing home a week ago Monday, and I was able to spend many hours at his side as he went through the final stages of the death process over the course of three days. I held his hand, spoke with him, shed tears of love and gratitude towards him. It was a sad as well as deeply beautiful experience to watch the end come to his full and rich life filled with his love to others.

The day before he died I sat in his room talking with the hospice person for just over an hour who had come to care for his and the family's need. I talked about my father's spiritual life, as well as my thoughts on death and dying. It was a peaceful and beautiful time talking about these things with my father lying on his bed between us. It was deeply spiritual, speaking of how I drove into the rising sun as I was coming to be with him, seeing the beauty of the day over the farm fields beginning anew. Peace came over me with the thought that it was a good day to die. How the passing of life comes in the rising of the new, that the world continues as we pass from it in return to it as the Source of our own being. It was a beautiful shared experience speaking of life, death and dying with her while I sat at my father's side.

Then at the door a minister came whom one of the residents had sent thinking he should come pray for my father. My father did not relate to the divine, or the Infinite in the typical traditional Christian ways. He was a deeply spiritual man, but did not get much out of the religious approach of the "man upstairs" way of envisioning it. He was much deeper than that, even though he lacked a vocabulary to really speak of how he related to it, "The sea of Goodness", is one way he would speak of it, being a man in his 80's. When I would speak with him previously of my views, we were very much on the same pages.

And so I politely spoke with the minister about my father's view, about my own, and how that though we appreciated the gesture it wasn't how he or myself exactly relate to God, though I respect that approach for others who find it meaningful. He shook my hand and left the room, and I continue my discussion about "God", life, and death with the hospice person with my father between us. I was very respectful to the minister, very truthful, and very clear.

So what did I learn happened the next day, a mere two hours before my father's final breaths? The minister apparently was "offended" by me, and that resident and him went back into my father's room after the hospice person and myself were gone, and they prayed for him and sang their little songs for him, as he lay there unconscious, in his finals hours/days of death. How did I find out? I was sitting with my mother at a table in the cafeteria and the woman whom she knew came wheeled herself up to the table with us and started acting hostilely towards me, then finally turned to me and said, "I have to ask you, what are your beliefs?". I was taken aback, not really grasping what was going on, unaware of her little violation of sacred trust and respect with her minister friend. I answered respectfully and as simply as I could, even though it would take a full book's explanation to begin to convey how I believe. She wrinkled her nose up at me, took my mother's hand and explained how I had offended the minster and how she and him went into his room and prayed for my father, as she tried to console my mother.

I got up and told her I did not want to talk with her, and how offended I was by people like her who were incapable of seeing past their own beliefs to others enough to respect their wishes. I left as I felt a rage coming on, passed by the nursing station where my father was, and with my hands shaking I told them point blank that that woman and that minster were absolutely not allowed in my father's room or anywhere near him. I went outside, and sadly, as my mother came out to join me, I lost it. I began screaming and sobbing uncontrollably at the top of my lungs, and for some reason I just started running full speed as a screamed and cried. I have never had anything like that happen to me in my life! I couldn't stop it.

I finally was able to settle after about 20 minutes, and told myself I needed to spend time with my father at his side, as I cannot afford to let this dominate this final hours with him. I settled and went back to his room, crying with the hospice nurse telling he what had just happened, then sat quietly with my dad at his side on his final day. Two hours later he was gone. His face had the look of deep meditation. Peace filled his room as he left his body of 89 years.

Truly, these particular brand of "Christians" are the very predators whom Jesus spoke about, calling them wolves in sheep's clothing. A wolf is a predator. But what a better word even still is vampires. The live by sucking the life energy from others. They are not capable of love. They are incapable of compassion. They are self-feeding off of others, even the family of a dying man. I have no words to truly convey the vileness, the non-Christian, non-loving self-righteous, self-justifying, self-vindicating religiousness of these predators, these vampires. I came to the conclusion a few months ago that fundamentalism was a disease, a pathology, not just another version of religious beliefs. It is a sickness. And the sickness I saw was horrible. Even at deaths bed, they are incapable of empathy or compassion.

Why did I post this in the debate section? Because anyone who thinks this brand of religion serves God or humanity in any positive way shape or form, think again! This is the fruit! I cannot say enough of my utter lack of respect for it, and I am dedicating the rest of my life to help educate and free those who have sold their souls to it for the illusion they are saved. They are not. This is the fruit it bears, in full broad daylight for the world to see. Use the name Jesus all you want. By their fruit you shall know them.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I'm sorry you had to go through that. Take heart that that kind of behavior and disrespect is not the norm though. Think how many times a chaplain wanders through a hospital checking on people and offering services and is turned away politely, or even not politely as the case may be, and they simply go about their rounds. What that minister and that woman did was highly disrespectful and shameful though and I am sorry that was experienced. It is sad that people, no matter the age, never seem to learn basic respect for others.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Recently I experienced the loss of my father. He died peacefully in a nursing home a week ago Monday, and I was able to spend many hours at his side as he went through the final stages of the death process over the course of three days. I held his hand, spoke with him, shed tears of love and gratitude towards him. It was a sad as well as deeply beautiful experience to watch the end come to his full and rich life filled with his love to others.

The day before he died I sat in his room talking with the hospice person for just over an hour who had come to care for his and the family's need. I talked about my father's spiritual life, as well as my thoughts on death and dying. It was a peaceful and beautiful time talking about these things with my father lying on his bed between us. It was deeply spiritual, speaking of how I drove into the rising sun as I was coming to be with him, seeing the beauty of the day over the farm fields beginning anew. Peace came over me with the thought that it was a good day to die. How the passing of life comes in the rising of the new, that the world continues as we pass from it in return to it as the Source of our own being. It was a beautiful shared experience speaking of life, death and dying with her while I sat at my father's side.

Then at the door a minister came whom one of the residents had sent thinking he should come pray for my father. My father did not relate to the divine, or the Infinite in the typical traditional Christian ways. He was a deeply spiritual man, but did not get much out of the religious approach of the "man upstairs" way of envisioning it. He was much deeper than that, even though he lacked a vocabulary to really speak of how he related to it, "The sea of Goodness", is one way he would speak of it, being a man in his 80's. When I would speak with him previously of my views, we were very much on the same pages.

And so I politely spoke with the minister about my father's view, about my own, and how that though we appreciated the gesture it wasn't how he or myself exactly relate to God, though I respect that approach for others who find it meaningful. He shook my hand and left the room, and I continue my discussion about "God", life, and death with the hospice person with my father between us. I was very respectful to the minister, very truthful, and very clear.

So what did I learn happened the next day, a mere two hours before my father's final breaths? The minister apparently was "offended" by me, and that resident and him went back into my father's room after the hospice person and myself were gone, and they prayed for him and sang their little songs for him, as he lay there unconscious, in his finals hours/days of death. How did I find out? I was sitting with my mother at a table in the cafeteria and the woman whom she knew came wheeled herself up to the table with us and started acting hostilely towards me, then finally turned to me and said, "I have to ask you, what are your beliefs?". I was taken aback, not really grasping what was going on, unaware of her little violation of sacred trust and respect with her minister friend. I answered respectfully and as simply as I could, even though it would take a full book's explanation to begin to convey how I believe. She wrinkled her nose up at me, took my mother's hand and explained how I had offended the minster and how she and him went into his room and prayed for my father, as she tried to console my mother.

I got up and told her I did not want to talk with her, and how offended I was by people like her who were incapable of seeing past their own beliefs to others enough to respect their wishes. I left as I felt a rage coming on, passed by the nursing station where my father was, and with my hands shaking I told them point blank that that woman and that minster were absolutely not allowed in my father's room or anywhere near him. I went outside, and sadly, as my mother came out to join me, I lost it. I began screaming and sobbing uncontrollably at the top of my lungs, and for some reason I just started running full speed as a screamed and cried. I have never had anything like that happen to me in my life! I couldn't stop it.

I finally was able to settle after about 20 minutes, and told myself I needed to spend time with my father at his side, as I cannot afford to let this dominate this final hours with him. I settled and went back to his room, crying with the hospice nurse telling he what had just happened, then sat quietly with my dad at his side on his final day. Two hours later he was gone. His face had the look of deep meditation. Peace filled his room as he left his body of 89 years.

Truly, these particular brand of "Christians" are the very predators whom Jesus spoke about, calling them wolves in sheep's clothing. A wolf is a predator. But what a better word even still is vampires. The live by sucking the life energy from others. They are not capable of love. They are incapable of compassion. They are self-feeding off of others, even the family of a dying man. I have no words to truly convey the vileness, the non-Christian, non-loving self-righteous, self-justifying, self-vindicating religiousness of these predators, these vampires. I came to the conclusion a few months ago that fundamentalism was a disease, a pathology, not just another version of religious beliefs. It is a sickness. And the sickness I saw was horrible. Even at deaths bed, they are incapable of empathy or compassion.

Why did I post this in the debate section? Because anyone who thinks this brand of religion serves God or humanity in any positive way shape or form, think again! This is the fruit! I cannot say enough of my utter lack of respect for it, and I am dedicating the rest of my life to help educate and free those who have sold their souls to it for the illusion they are saved. They are not. This is the fruit it bears, in full broad daylight for the world to see. Use the name Jesus all you want. By their fruit you shall know them.

Im sorry for your loss.

I am sick and disgusted by people who would do that sort of thing, they are approaching inhuman levels of disrespect.

This is why the only form of priest in a hospital room should be the ones that the patient asks for.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is sad that people, no matter the age, never seem to learn basic respect for others.
I can forgive the woman as a broken soul who has latched onto a form of religion which simply feeds and reinforces her spiritual illness. But the minister? If he is unable to have basic respect for others, why is he a leader and teacher? Why is he a minister? I can forgive her, though never respect her again, but the minister I am holding accountable for the violation of his role. I plan to write to the administration of the home about having his access to residents revoked as this is clearly predatory behavior. There are many ministers like him out there, and they are truly wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. This has really driven home the point clearly to me.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
I'm sorry for your loss.

To be honest, what this minister did was reprehensible and would have made my blood absolutely boil as well. I'm not sure I would have handled myself even as well as you did.

I agree, I am a pacifist but my anger has limits when im already in a highly emotional state.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Windwalker, my thoughts are with you and your family.

The sad thing is these types of religious zealots have absolutely no idea what they have done wrong and will probably do it again at the next opportunity.

Nasty, nasty people who think they have the moral high ground, how wrong they are.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
There was an article about something similar to this on the Wild Hunt recently. There's a systemic problem with end-of-life care and how it is handled in hospitals. The only ministers available tend to be Christian, which leaves minority religious groups in something of a bind. It seems the only way to resolve this right now is for minority religious groups to have their own resource pool they can draw from, and then for hospitals to be more sensitive to diversity by having an extensive list of community contacts.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm sorry you had to go through that, Windwalker.

I've never been through anything that awful when my loved ones died, but I have run into a few predatory chaplains.

Stories like yours are one of the reasons I'm against chaplaincy in general, especially in environments with vulnerable people.

If someone wants to see a priest/minister/what-have-you for their own denomination, allow them to visit. Even put them in touch with a local minister if they ask for one and are far away from their home church... all that is fine.

... but keeping a minister on staff to address the "spiritual" needs of the staff and patients - regardless of their own religious affiliation - is just asking for trouble, IMO.

And it compounds the problem when hospitals treat chaplains as a substitute for qualified secular counsellors.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
I understand your feelings (on my own scale) as a similar situation happened with my grandfather.

Depending on what you consider fundamentalism, logical argumentation doesn't work on these believers.
They'll destroy a relationship with their own child, as my 'parents' have, because they were raised that their beliefs are of higher importance.
The only person that can stop them from thinking the way they do is themselves, otherwise you're just wasting your time.
Making them feel dumb is still fun, though, if that helps.

My condolences for your loss.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Windwalker, you might appreciate a story from when my Dad died. It was actually the way I found out he was an atheist:

My Mom contacted the funeral home to make arrangements. We were having the memorial service in the funeral home. They asked if they should provide the officiant - she agreed.

The morning of the funeral, we met with the officiant to go over details. The officiant turned out to be a minister from a local church. As my Mom read through the wishes my Dad had given for his memorial service, she got to one that took the minister aback: "no God. No mention of God or Jesus."

The way he reacted, you would've thought that we had asked him to officiate in a lobster costume. He protested a bit ("No God at all? Really?" "What about this Bible passage - I always read it at funerals and it only mentions God a little." "No God? Really? Hrmmm.), but since he was there really as an employee or subcontractor of the funeral home, we had no trouble insisting that my father's wishes be honoured.

To his credit, he did as we asked. We conceded to him a bit by letting him have a voluntary moment of silent prayer or reflection. But all through the service, we could tell that he was stopping himself from adding in religious things out of habit... and being a bit uncomfortable as he did it.

It was a funny moment in an otherwise difficult day.
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
My condolences on the loss of your father. I'm sorry to hear you had that kind of experience during precious last hours with a loved one.

I think it's a good idea to write to the administration, like you mentioned. A person that puts their own wishes and beliefs above the wishes and beliefs of those in the hospice have no business having access to those patients.

Assuming a person would welcome a minister (and being wrong about) would be an innocent mistake. Ignoring a stated request to stay away, and sneaking in when family is not present, is unacceptable.
 
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First Baseman

Retired athlete
Sorry about your loss.

They could have and should have just prayed for him somewhere else. It doesn't matter where one prays just that one does so if that is their faith. They should have honored your wishes and stayed out of his room.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
WindyOne, I am saddened by your loss. Yesterday I was told by my mom's specialist that she has an inoperable cancerous tumor and approximately 7 years to live. I feel your pain, though that sounds so terribly trite. While reading your account though I was really struck by the enormous symbolism involved. This is a huge learning experience and what a way to make the point indelible. I admire your bravery and courage. No wonder you went running. Who wouldn't? Better that than releasing the rage in close proximity to the one offending you. The arrogance of certainty, eh? Don't worry, you can prop me up in a few years....


Oh.... if you can muster the interest I mentioned you in another thread. I'll understand if you pass on commenting though I'd love to get your take on the whole thing. You have so much to share... and good communicators are few and far between...
 

Wirey

Fartist
May I suggest holding the minister's wind pipe closed until he can ask God what the deal about it is personally?

Sorry about your Dad. I lost mine a year ago, and I still catch myself thinking I should call him now and then.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I'm glad I didn't work there. I'd be furious. Had I been in charge, I would have been with you and your family to learn of your wishes. Had the minister come to me about getting kicked out, I would have explained that you have the right to your beliefs and if you and the nosy patient want to have a separate ritual elsewhere, I wouldn't stop them. They needed to be able to deal with the death too. However, they had no right to butt in on your last moments with your father.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey, sorry for your loss, but thanks for sharing an important story.
It strikes me that 'uncommon' religious beliefs are even more difficult for the system to respect and cater for than non-belief.

It really would seem better and more appropriate to have affiliated groups that can provide spiritual assistance on request by the patient/family. It is such a very personal thing, andcsuch an important time to have such beliefs respected without the need for vigilance or defensive actions.

Again, sorry for your loss.
 
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