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Featured Religious People are Not Stupid

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Truly Enlightened, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Yup.

    There is the ignorance of our unknowing, and the ignorance of willfully ignoring that which is or could be known. Both result in poor cognition of reality, but only the latter is intent on maintaining itself.
     
  2. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Could you please explain what you mean by, "nature of bookness", and "reality determiners". Sorry.
     
  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    And if the truth were limited to physical functionality, this method would be the pathway to truth that those who have fallen into "scientism" believe and assert it to be. But physics is a transcendental phenomena. And it has transcended itself into the new (higher) realms of life, and of consciousness, and thereby has spawned a whole new realm of existential experience called "metaphysics". And science cannot help us explore that realm of experience. For that we need philosophy, art, and religion.
     
  4. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    To the best of my knowledge "us" is referring to God. He was using the "royal we" designation used by people in authority on formal occasions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

    I guess that "us" is a key verse used by trinitarians to prove Jesus was God. The only problem with that is that it causes many contradictions to arise in the Bible. Jesus is called the "Son of God almost 50 times but never "God the Son." Jesus said God was greater than he (John 14:28), that God knew things he didn't know (Matt 24:36). Jesus and God had two separate wills (Matt 26:39). Jesus was tempted (Matt 4:1) whereas God can not be tempted (James 1:13). God told Israel that He would raise up a prophet like Moses (Deut 18:15), a man, not God. Jesus was just like you and I (Heb 4:15), men, not gods. God granted Jesus power over all flesh (John 17:2). Why would God have to grant anything to an entity that was supposedly equal? These is just a few of the contradictions created by the trinity doctrine. On the other hand, eliminating the trinity causes absolutely no problem. It simply makes the Bible fit like a hand in a glove, as it should.

    If there is an apparent contradiction in the Bible (the trinity causes many) it is either in translation or the reader's understanding. The easiest and cleanest way to clear up the contradictions caused by the trinity is to simple forget about the trinity and understand Jesus to be the only begotten son of God who redeemed us from sin and death by his perfect obedience to his father. Too many years of tradition have clouded an otherwise simple story. It takes a lot of suspension of disbelief to get three people in one. It has to be pawned off as something we just accept, that is a mystery that is beyond our understanding. Somehow the pagan mystery religions of ancient Greece and Rome convinced there followers of trinities, but there is no justification for that belief now that God has clearly revealed himself through the scriptures (John 17:3).
     
  5. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Reminds me of,

    1Tim 1:4,

    Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
    Fables raise ever more questions, not God or His word. Of course, if this verse isn't understood and/or believed, one is destined to have many unanswerable questions. The Bible is a very unique book. It is at once foolishness as well as the power of God. It all depends on the reader's attitude.

    1Cor 1:18,

    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.​
     
  6. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Thank you again. I must say you are truly the "poster child" for this post. I was almost hyperventilating with all the tortuous, convoluted, logical gymnastics you needed to employ, to validate your preconceived narrative. You have no idea of the ramifications of your remarks. You can't see how your remarks can affect any inquisitive mind that wants to learn and aspire towards greater knowledge. I encourage people to learn and believe in themselves, not discourage them. Knowledge is accumulative. We learn more and more from each generation. I'm sure you don't agree that parents should keep telling their children that they will always be "profoundly ignorant". Or, that they will never amount to anything? Or, that they have no right to make claims on the truth of reality. Of course you don't.

    I stated that you could go to the zoo or an aquarium and test if even one animal would talk to you. You responded with, "..you could go to literature, where it appears to happen rather often.". I assume that you weren't in the children's section. I will also assume that the animals did not speak to you from the pages. This is not even an explanation, let alone evidence.

    Scientific evidence is objective. Objective evidence is evidence that we can prove by direct/indirect methods(measurements, observation, analysis, experimentation, etc.). I, or anyone else can easily prove that animals don't talk to humans, or that the dead don't return to work the next day. And, no matter how much subjective evidence you have, you still won't be able to fly. Subject evidence is evidence that can't be proven directly by the scientific method(the devil made me do it, testimonials, visions, beliefs, etc.). I have no idea how obtaining evidence, objectively, is an intellectual impossibility. It is done in research everyday.

    Your worldview stunts intellectual creativity, discourages learning, and perpetuates the very ignorance that you claim is the human condition. You may have accepted this defeatist and cynical worldview, but most inquiring minds haven't. So, unless you have some comments on the rest of my post, belabouring what is clearly and intuitively obvious, will only result in an exercise in futility. It will also demonstrate just how far intelligent people will go to rationalize irrational beliefs. Remember, this is not about what we don't know, it's about what we do know. Maybe you can offer your ideas on why intelligent people can believe and defend irrational things?
     
  7. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    That is truly a possible explanation. Thank you.
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Mankind did not mess up. Long before your omni-all creator-god made humans, he knew they would succumb to temptation. He intentionally designed them to fail.

    How does knowing that help?






    What idea have I dismissed before fully understanding it? I fully understand that, if your beliefs and your god are true and correct, your god intentionally designed humans to fail. Why can't you accept that?
     
  9. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    One does not have to believe that Shakespeare's plays or the Harry Potter stories are truth in order to understand them.

    Why did omni-all god design them to fail to begin with?[/QUOTE]
     
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean following my body into the grave? My mind and body are one. There is no leading or following. When my mind stops working, my body stops working. I, like you, will cease to exist. That is reality. All your hopes and prayers cannot change the reality of nature. Ask yourself why you must deny this.
     
  11. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    It isn't about wise or stupid. It's about accepting or rejecting superstitious beliefs.
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    How can one willfully ignore that which could be known?
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Science is usually looked upon as the epitome of objectivity. But perhaps it's not as objective as we'd all like to think.

    I'm thinking of Quantum Mechanics which is not quite as "tidy" as Newtonian Physics. In fact, the very hallmark of QM is subjectivity. The observer does in fact affect the nature of his/her reality. With that in mind, perhaps it's not at all gullible or naive to believe,

    Mark 11:23,

    For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    It's not really looking at the whole picture when QM is left out of discussions of the scriptures vs. science. While Newton would certainly look askance at the parting of the Red Sea and a few other so called scientific impossibilities, QM wouldn't.
     
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    They could deliberately never go to a library.
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    And so let us use your method in connection with religion, or a God. OK?
    Observe:- All around us we can observe matter and energy, looking out into our Solar Sstem, Galaxy and to the very edge of our Universe.
    Hypothesize:- We are already observing unusual movements of some Galaxies which suggests the existence of huge amounts of matter beyond our Universe, and we can think about the possibility of Universes beyond our own.
    Experiment:- We are experimenting with maths, physics and differing types of scopes, measuring every kind of frequency which the Universe is producing and reaching our planet.
    Conclude:- Any scientist can conclude that there has to be a reason for the existence of our Universe and it's matter and energy in light and dark forms.
    Observe anew:- We know that our Universe is expanding, but scientists have taken measurements and already know that the energy, matter, dark and light matter is remaining constant without dilution.
    Hypothesise:- We can easily perceive with our intution that this condition is beyond any explanation that science can provide at this time, and it falls into the 'supernatural'.
    Conclude:- Many of us can easily conclude within your method that there has to be a REASON for all, and we choose to give this reason a name, some of us calling that name God, others Allah, and many more titles too numerous to mention.
    QED.
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    As far as that goes, very true. However the Bible is a different animal altogether than Shakespeare or Harry Potter.

    1Cor 1:18,

    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    A bold claim to be sure. I don't know of any other book that claims to be the power of almighty God. The scriptures are either foolishness or the power of God. It all depends on this thing called "being saved" (another story).

    Then there is this one,

    Heb 11:6,

    But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    So unlike Harry Potter of Shakespeare, any understanding that comes from reading the Bible is very much dependent on the reader's attitude.

    The same reason we don't tie our children to the bed for their entire life to prevent them from making mistakes. While such a tactic might work, it wouldn't be very loving. God gave us free will in the beginning and He declared that to be "very good" (Gen 1:31). If God thinks free will is very good, who am I to argue? It's better to just agree with Him and accept that free will is more desirable than robotic control.
     
  17. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    more like......

    7billion copies of a learning device....
    and they all end up as dust?

    no continuance?

    not one chance in billions?
     
  18. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Although the observer or tester will affect the outcome of a specific quantum state, this is already factored into the math. I'm afraid Quantum Mechanics/Quantum Theory is not the best example I would have chosen to illustrate my point. Of all the established Theories in science, it would've been my last choice. The Theories and principles of Quantum Mechanics are the most accurate, and the most tested of all the Theories in science. In the quantum world we are talking about probabilities, wave mechanics, and the uncertainty principle. In classical physics(Newtonian), we are talking about Gravity, mass, and Relativity. Essentially classical physics is continuous, and quantum physics is discontinuous(photoelectric effect, wave intensity, uncertainty principle, black body, etc.).

    I unfortunately must disagree with your train of logic. It is the at the Quantum level(not the Classical level) that proves why these miracles are impossible. We simply choose to rationalize our beliefs, and dismiss our logic, for the reasons I've mentioned in my post. We are not gullible or naive, we are just human.
     
  19. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I afraid that your premises are a series of disconnects. Our Universe is an isolated system. It can't exchange energy and matter with surroundings that don't exist. But within this system, all matter and energy is conserved(Conservation Laws). Dark Matter and Dark energy make up over 95% of the total Universe. Dark matter gives galaxies their additional gravity and spin, while Dark energy powers the expansion of the Universe. Scientists believe that Dark matter and energy were created first during the BB. Without them, normal matter, energy, suns and galaxies could not have formed.

    The scientific method is not MY method, and we do understand why galaxies move as they do. There are also many candidates for the origin of the Universe(quantum flux, quantum gravity, intersecting Branes, etc.). As yet, we don't have the definitive answer. But we are still very hopeful(Neutrino, graviton, and WIMP research). By omitting specific and related facts(facts about God) in your hypothesis and experimental stages, your conclusion has no rational connect. You could have simply stated that the reason we can observe matter and energy all around us(we don't visibly see energy), is because of the existence of God. This is a conclusion based of a fallacy, not on the scientific method. Just because science can't explain something yet, doesn't mean that the supernatural becomes the default answer. This is an argument from ignorance, and also demonstrate just how badly we need our beliefs to be so.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    You're partially correct, but some mathematicians, physicists and astronomers feel sure that we are not the only Universe.

    I know......... repeating this to me doesn't help.....

    I know....... but SMs can vary, it seems.

    I need to put it my way, not your suggested way.

    You surely understand that there is a reason for everything? There was a reason for the initiation of our Universe but we don't know about it yet.

    But please, within your SM, admit that there was a reason for the initiation of our universe and all beyond?
     
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