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Featured Religious Morals Invading Our Secular Life

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Is it always good?

    Leviticus is pretty clear about whom a person (mainly males) should not have sexual relations with. Everybody from one's mother, to a sister, to a daughter, to a granddaughter, or an aunt is off limits (no mention is made of first cousins).

    Leviticus 18:6-7 “You must never have sexual relations with a close relative, for I am the LORD. “Do not violate your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; you must not have sexual relations with her.

    Leviticus 18:8-10 “Do not have sexual relations with your sister or half sister, whether she is your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born into your household or someone else’s. “Do not have sexual relations with your granddaughter, whether she is your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, for this would violate yourself.

    Leviticus 18:11-17 “Do not have sexual relations with your stepsister, the daughter of any of your father’s wives, for she is your sister. “Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister, for she is your father’s close relative. “Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, for she is your mother’s close relative. “Do not violate your uncle, your father’s brother, by having sexual relations with his wife, for she is your aunt.

    Leviticus 20:19-21 “Do not have sexual relations with your aunt, whether your mother’s sister or your father’s sister. This would dishonor a close relative. Both parties are guilty and will be punished for their sin. “If a man has sex with his uncle’s wife, he has violated his uncle. Both the man and woman will be punished for their sin, and they will die childless.
    Although god does make exceptions.

    Genesis 19:13, 35
    So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him,
    Nothing is said to have befallen any of the three for their incest; both daughters became pregnant.


    Interestingly, no rational for these prohibitions is given other than how such relationships "violates" oneself or others.

    "this would violate yourself."
    "Do not violate your father."
    "this would violate your brother."​

    or

    it "would be a wicked act"​

    Why these would violate oneself or others is not explained, nor is it explained why it would be a wicked act. In short then, Biblical incest is forbidden and evidently a sin for apparently no other reason than god simply doesn't like it and want it, which for Christians is understandably good enough.

    However, such prohibition has found its way into secular law in the USA, where in some states it's violation can result in life imprisonment (Idaho).

    I'm sure many Christians have no problem with these Biblical prohibitions being adopted into secular life, and may even defend them. "The Bible says it's a sin to have sex with one's sister, which is quite reasonable, so it should be good enough for everyone else."
    But is this truly fair?

    Why shouldn't two consenting adults be able to do whatever they wish with each other no matter who those adult are, as long as no one is hurt? Of course, because of the possibility of genetic defects arising in a child who's the product of such a sexual relationship, one would have to insure pregnancy never occurs. And, one could even argue that god knew of this possibility all along, which is why he didn't want people committing incest; however, this is never even hinted at in the Bible. And for people today the wide availability of various birth control measures makes god's possible concern a moot issue.

    Thoughts?

    .
     
    #1 Skwim, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  2. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    That is why the founding fathers ensured a separation of church and state; something, mind you, the religious people of this country have been attempting to undermine with what they consider their monopoly on morality.

    If anyone could be considered a deplorable, it would be a religious person attempting to alter society to the degree that only religious thought was considered valid.
     
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  3. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Although there is no reasoning in the Bible for it, in case of incest, it's a good idea to ban it because of the problems children of such unions can experience. As we know, such breeding has caused problems for dogs and other animals which were bred through incest that are not easy to be fixed down the line.
     
  4. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It's not possible to ensure pregnancy never occurs, people aren't responsible.

    Also allowing a parent to have sex with their child when their child reaches the age of consent doesn't seem like a great idea to me (or an older/younger sibling for that matter).

    I'm with Mo on this one :babyangel:
     
  5. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    This is a "jump the shark" post - seriously suggesting that a father having sex with a daughter is OK if they use birth control. It sexualizes what should be a loving relationship as well as blowing apart the family - what wife would go along with this evil?

    This idea reduces humans to less than animals.
     
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  6. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    One further note - it's also against Hinduism.
     
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  7. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    Adam and Eve had two sons, who populated the earth if not through incest?
     
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  8. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    The bible is full of evil, didn't you know that?
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Ever hear of a woman having her tubes tied, or going through menopause?

    .
     
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  10. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that's how humanity started out. What I mean to say is, this is one of the good rules in the Bible, even though they don't give a reasoning why. (I'm not a Bible-believer)
     
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  11. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    I only just now noticed that you're Gnostic.

    As far as genetics are concerned, and from what I understand of incest, problems only arise after many generations of incest.
     
  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Yes. Ever hear that it is not 100% successful?

    At taxpayers expense, we could make a system of 'incest licencing' for certified post-menopausal woman. Still doesn't fix the other problems due to imbalance of power, etc.

    We stop teachers having sex with pupils, even if it is consensual for this very reason.

    Still with Mo :babyangel:
     
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  13. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Luck of the draw. Could have recessive genes that cause problems immediately or could have nothing that we can tell right away.
     
  14. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Many religious prohibitions aren't based of pragmatism. Many derive from conventionalism or from "ickyness."
     
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  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    It's more like evolutionary rationale given a religious spin, and predates all known religions.
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171005141759.htm
     
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  16. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    Indeed, which makes it more likely that the prohibition came from a human perspective rather than a divine one.
     
  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Or lived experience. Experience can be very pragmatic as time is a great tester of things.

    Myths often get created to justify behaviours that people derived from experience over time.
     
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  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Yup, but being at least 99.5% successful it's well within reason. And with same sex couples it is 100%. But then this is up to the individuals to decide, not you or me, just as it is with any two unrelated people, one of whom may possibly pass along a genetic defect.

    Not with students who are consenting adults.
     
    #18 Skwim, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  19. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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  20. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Many countries prohibit it even for students over the age of consent.

    What age do you think people should be before being able to start on an incestuous relationship with a certified post-menopausal family member?

    Mo still winning for me :babyangel:
     
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