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Religious Junkies

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Believing in God generates soothing "juices" in the brain that make us feel good, says Tiger. Scientists have identified the neurotransmitter serotonin, a network of neurons in the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes, and the gene VMAT2 as chemical, structural and genetic origin points that may be responsible for religiosity.
The Neurological Origins of Religious Belief


Was religion developed as a means to get high(create a feeling of wellbeing)?

The ecstasy of the religious experience. Is it possible that our rituals, chants, prayers, imagery were mechanisms we've developed to release chemicals in our brain to create a sensation of happiness, comfort, wellbeing?

Is it something the non-religious are missing out on or have they simply find alternate means to produce these chemicals?

When I was 17, I gave myself to God and was immediately flooded with a sense of wellbeing. This at the time seemed to justify belief in God. You believe in God and you are rewarded with a feeling of wellbeing.

Is religious belief a way of tricking the brain into releasing the chemicals to cause a physiological experience we desire?

I've often asked what benefit religious belief brings. Perhaps it is this chemical high cause by the release of serotonin and other chemicals that make us feel good, happy.

By criticizing a person's religious belief are you threatening to cut them off from their fix?
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I find this very simplistic.

Especially in the case of the Jewish people who have endured torment after torment simply for being Jewish it would make more sense to discard those beliefs.

Or in the Soviet Union, for both Jews and Christians.

Or for Muslims being attacked at their inception in Arabia.

Belief in G-d can, on a surface level, appear to be more trouble than it's worth, especially just for a fix you could get by smoking a bong.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
Believing in God generates soothing "juices" in the brain that make us feel good, says Tiger. Scientists have identified the neurotransmitter serotonin, a network of neurons in the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes, and the gene VMAT2 as chemical, structural and genetic origin points that may be responsible for religiosity.
The Neurological Origins of Religious Belief


Was religion develop as a means to get high?

The ecstasy of the religious experience. Is it possible that our rituals, chants, prayers, imagery were mechanisms we've developed to release chemicals in our brain to create a sensation of happiness, comfort, wellbeing?

Is it something the non-religious are missing out on or have they simply find alternate means to produce these chemicals?

When I was 17, I gave myself to God and was immediately flooded with a sense of wellbeing. This at the time seemed to justify belief in God. You believe in God and you are rewarded with a feeling of wellbeing.

Is religious belief a way of tricking the brain into releasing the chemicals to cause a physiological experience we desire?

I've often asked what benefit religious belief brings. Perhaps it is this chemical high cause by the release of serotonin and other chemicals that make us feel good, happy.

By criticizing a person's religious belief are you threatening to cut them off from their fix?
You shouldn't criticize someone's beliefs
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
I find this very simplistic.

Especially in the case of the Jewish people who have endured torment after torment simply for being Jewish it would make more sense to discard those beliefs.

Or in the Soviet Union, for both Jews and Christians.

Or for Muslims being attacked at their inception in Arabia.

Belief in G-d can, on a surface level, appear to be more trouble than it's worth, especially just for a fix you could get by smoking a bong.
A person shouldn't have to discard a belief because of persecution
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Believing in God generates soothing "juices" in the brain that make us feel good, says Tiger. Scientists have identified the neurotransmitter serotonin, a network of neurons in the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes, and the gene VMAT2 as chemical, structural and genetic origin points that may be responsible for religiosity.
The Neurological Origins of Religious Belief


Was religion develop as a means to get high?

The ecstasy of the religious experience. Is it possible that our rituals, chants, prayers, imagery were mechanisms we've developed to release chemicals in our brain to create a sensation of happiness, comfort, wellbeing?

Is it something the non-religious are missing out on or have they simply find alternate means to produce these chemicals?

When I was 17, I gave myself to God and was immediately flooded with a sense of wellbeing. This at the time seemed to justify belief in God. You believe in God and you are rewarded with a feeling of wellbeing.

Is religious belief a way of tricking the brain into releasing the chemicals to cause a physiological experience we desire?

I've often asked what benefit religious belief brings. Perhaps it is this chemical high cause by the release of serotonin and other chemicals that make us feel good, happy.

By criticizing a person's religious belief are you threatening to cut them off from their fix?
I don't think Religion was ever created as a fix, but rather as an explanatory tool for lack of better.

Also haven't read the study, so just thinking out loud. But does the study compare the effect of other similar things? How does dancing and singing affect a person? What about the sensation of finally figuring something out that you didn't know before and suddenly you see things in a different way, which have nothing to do with religion?

Would be interesting to see if such things or similar have the same effect on people.

Religions should be criticized as any other belief should if there is a valid reason for doing so. A belief is not sacred and should never be!! Just as political beliefs should be criticized as well, there is no difference in my opinion.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
I don't think Religion was ever created as a fix, but rather as an explanatory tool for lack of better.

Also haven't read the study, so just thinking out loud. But does the study compare the effect of other similar things? How does dancing and singing affect a person? What about the sensation of finally figuring something out that you didn't know before and suddenly you see things in a different way, which have nothing to do with religion?

Would be interesting to see if such things or similar have the same effect on people.

Religions should be criticized as any other belief should if there is a valid reason for doing so. A belief is not sacred and should never be!! Just as political beliefs should be criticized as well, there is no difference in my opinion.
My beliefs are connected to God and I respect them. No big deal really.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Besides what @Rival wrote and which I agree with, there's a matter of cause and effect. The reductionistic view that religion is merely caused by brain chemicals ignores that there is another explanation possible which is that a true experience causes changes in brain chemistry.

Even granted that people can use various means to get "high", this does not mean that all people always use such methods.

An alternative possibility is part of the song "Change Can Come" which is about a sudden, spontaneous experience which happens and changes one's life.

Change can come in the twinkling of an eye,
In the ripple upon a lake.
Change can come in the color of a flower,
In the sparkle of morning dew,
When the Light catches you.
In that tiny moment, you are transformed.

And the radiance of Christ
Shines forth in reply

From within, and has made itself known,
And from the two is born
A new world.

Come, let us join
Our many golden flickering
And create one Light,
Together,
Forever.

In My Name Lyrics
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
My beliefs are connected to God and I respect them. No big deal really.
And that is fine, I have no issues with that. But when a religion think its a good idea to circumcise children or what other wacky things they believe is good. Then that should be criticized because it's wrong, God or no God.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I find this very simplistic.

Especially in the case of the Jewish people who have endured torment after torment simply for being Jewish it would make more sense to discard those beliefs.

Or in the Soviet Union, for both Jews and Christians.

Or for Muslims being attacked at their inception in Arabia.

Belief in G-d can, on a surface level, appear to be more trouble than it's worth, especially just for a fix you could get by smoking a bong.

Seems to me exactly what you would need to get through times of adversity. I doubt religious folks would see it as getting a fix but more as a source of peace and wellbeing.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Believing in God generates soothing "juices" in the brain that make us feel good, says Tiger. Scientists have identified the neurotransmitter serotonin, a network of neurons in the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes, and the gene VMAT2 as chemical, structural and genetic origin points that may be responsible for religiosity.
The Neurological Origins of Religious Belief


Was religion develop as a means to get high?

The ecstasy of the religious experience. Is it possible that our rituals, chants, prayers, imagery were mechanisms we've developed to release chemicals in our brain to create a sensation of happiness, comfort, wellbeing?

Is it something the non-religious are missing out on or have they simply find alternate means to produce these chemicals?

When I was 17, I gave myself to God and was immediately flooded with a sense of wellbeing. This at the time seemed to justify belief in God. You believe in God and you are rewarded with a feeling of wellbeing.

Is religious belief a way of tricking the brain into releasing the chemicals to cause a physiological experience we desire?

I've often asked what benefit religious belief brings. Perhaps it is this chemical high cause by the release of serotonin and other chemicals that make us feel good, happy.

By criticizing a person's religious belief are you threatening to cut them off from their fix?


generating soothing juices isn't a cause, its the effect.


its like knowing the solution to a problem vs just having a problem with no known solution. one causes anxiety the other relaxation.


increased levels in dmt are more likely to be an effect of spiritual experiences. notice i said experiences and not beliefs.


nataraja is going to dance
blue kachina is going to dance
kulkukan is going to dance
david danced before the lord


Orgia - Wikipedia


Greek art and literature, as well as some patristic texts, indicate that the orgia involved snake handling.[5]


 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems to me exactly what you would need to get through times of adversity. I doubt religious folks would see it as getting a fix but more as a source of peace and wellbeing.
It just seems a rather self-destructive way in those circumstances.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Karl Marx famously described religion as a serotonin high, relying upon the analogy of drug addiction - that "opiate of the masses" line.

I often find myself unsatisfied when I see people referencing his statement - willy-nilly - without providing the surrounding context of his broader argument, as it actually wasn't as "scornful" of religion as it may appear from a cursory appraisal.

The complete sentence reads as follows: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

Now, that makes for a far more nuanced verdict on religion than you'd find - say - from the New Atheists of the noughties.

Back in 2012, the atheist philosopher Alain de Botton penned a controversial book titled, Religion for Atheists.

In it, he argued that rather than mocking religions as 'juvenile' irrationalities from a moribund past that we should be ashamed of, atheists and agnostics should instead plunder rituals from them - because these time-honoured practices and spiritualities actually have some meaningful things to teach our contemporary secular world. He wrote on page one:


"...No religions are true in any God-given sense. This is a book for people who are unable to believe in miracles, spirits or tales of burning shrubbery...The premise of this book is that it must be possible to remain a committed atheist and nevertheless find religions sporadically useful, interesting and consoling - and be curious as to the possibilities of importing certain of their ideas and practices into the secular realm..."


Believe it or not, I think this is what Karl Marx actually did. He founded an atheistic religion, infused - whether he consciously knew it or not - with presupposed principles about human dignity, equality and social justice originally derived from religion. Where Christians sung hymns to the risen Christ, Communists sang the 'Internationale'. Where Christians preached a gospel of spiritual equality between men and women, freemen and slaves, Jews and Greeks within the universal community of the body of Christ; Marx preached the gospel of worldwide working class solidarity. Where Christians had the cross, Communists had the hammer-and-sickle. Where Christians had a predetermined utopian vision of a future day of judgement in which God would right all wrongs and found his perfect kingdom of justice, Communists had a predetermined future world of plenty and classlessness on this earth. Marx's works - The Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital - even became a kind of indisputable scriptural authority in Communist countries.

Marx's close associate - and co-author of the 1848 Communist Manifesto - Friedriech Engels, derived explicit inspiration for modelling the early Socialist movement from that of the early Christian church in the Roman Empire. As he wrote at length in an essay in 1894:


On the History of Early Christianity

First Published: In Die Neue Zeit, 1894-95;
Translated: by the Institute of Marxism-Leninism



The history of early Christianity has notable points of resemblance with the modern working-class movement. Like the latter, Christianity was originally a movement of oppressed people: it first appeared as the religion of slaves and emancipated slaves, of poor people deprived of all rights, of peoples subjugated or dispersed by Rome. Both Christianity and the workers' socialism preach forthcoming salvation from bondage and misery...

Both are persecuted and baited, their adherents are despised and made the objects of exclusive laws, the former as enemies of the human race, the latter as enemies of the state, enemies of religion, the family, social order. And in spite of all persecution, nay, even spurred on by it, they forge victoriously, irresistibly ahead. Three hundred years after its appearance Christianity was the recognized state religion in the Roman World Empire, and in barely sixty years socialism has won itself a position which makes its victory absolutely certain....

In fact, the struggle against a world that at the beginning was superior in force, and at the same time against the novators themselves, is common to the early Christians and the Socialists. Neither of these two great movements were made by leaders or prophets — although there are prophets enough among both of them — they are mass movements...


Look at my signature - a quotation from the Gospel of Luke. Can one deny its affinity with the very same guiding ideals that inspired atheistic Socialist revolutionaries?

In a sense, Marx had a point in saying that religion functions a bit like opium. Spiritual experiences, which religions exist to impart and concretize in the ritualistic and moral life of a bounded community, are phenomena that can bring intense happiness, meaning and richness to the lives of their faithful adherents.

Given the prevalence of religious thinking and practise in every extant human culture through history, we can be sure that "religion" is an evolved trait of the human psyche, something that has contributed to our evolutionary fitness and survival as a species.

In the modern secular world, I would argue that we haven't abandoned religion. We just have new "rationalised" religions but the foundations of them aren't any more objectively based than the old ones. My friend @Augustus is a bit of an authority on that.

What is religion? A complex, symbolic belief system which seems to originate from the homo sapien ability to think abstractly (usually grounded in some kind of fundamental 'mythology') and thus providing an outlet for this. It satisfies the individual and community's yearning for a sense of personal fulfilment, transcendence and shared purpose. Religion often postulates that "meta-laws" are not socially constructed but rather derive from pre-existant superhuman forces that humans cannot simply change at will (or indeed, if the 'contract' with the gods/God is broken, may provide justification for regime change).

Communism, liberalism, fascism - these can all be understood as species of political religion.

Thus, to a Marxist we cannot change the mechanistic laws of history that will ultimately result in a "classless" egalitarian society without the evil of private ownership of property, nor for a Catholic can natural law be overridden by positive legislation that conflicts (i.e, St. Thomas Aquinas, "an unjust law is not a law, does not bind in conscience"), nor for a liberal progressive will the march of societal reform oriented towards a more equal society in which no minorty group is discriminated against by the privileged and powerful fail to succeed, nor for the ancient Sumerians was the Me ("divine ordinance" or "divine power", dictating rules for behaviour) any more dispensable or indeed the Dharmic belief in karma for Hindus and Buddhists.

Religions merely differ in the details of their myths, meta-commandments, and the rewards and punishments they promise.

But humans are, in my judgement, innately 'religious' at least to some degree by evolutionary adaption. Most of us believe in something greater than ourselves etc. - God, justice, equality, class struggle - even if we aren't consciously aware of it.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Besides what @Rival wrote and which I agree with, there's a matter of cause and effect. The reductionistic view that religion is merely caused by brain chemicals ignores that there is another explanation possible which is that a true experience causes changes in brain chemistry.

Even granted that people can use various means to get "high", this does not mean that all people always use such methods.

An alternative possibility is part of the song "Change Can Come" which is about a sudden, spontaneous experience which happens and changes one's life.

Change can come in the twinkling of an eye,
In the ripple upon a lake.
Change can come in the color of a flower,
In the sparkle of morning dew,
When the Light catches you.
In that tiny moment, you are transformed.

And the radiance of Christ
Shines forth in reply

From within, and has made itself known,
And from the two is born
A new world.

Come, let us join
Our many golden flickering
And create one Light,
Together,
Forever.

In My Name Lyrics

A lot of inspiring imagery which can create a feeling of wellbeing. That feeling of wellbeing at 17 certainly changed my life. It was a very depressing life. These chemicals change our mood which changes how we respond to life.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
And that is fine, I have no issues with that. But when a religion think its a good idea to circumcise children or what other wacky things they believe is good. Then that should be criticized because it's wrong, God or no God.
I wasn't addressing the need for religion to be questioned when it needed to be. I was stating that my beliefs are sacred because you wrote that beliefs should not be sacred
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Believing in God generates soothing "juices" in the brain that make us feel good, says Tiger. Scientists have identified the neurotransmitter serotonin, a network of neurons in the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes, and the gene VMAT2 as chemical, structural and genetic origin points that may be responsible for religiosity.
The Neurological Origins of Religious Belief


Was religion develop as a means to get high?

The ecstasy of the religious experience. Is it possible that our rituals, chants, prayers, imagery were mechanisms we've developed to release chemicals in our brain to create a sensation of happiness, comfort, wellbeing?

Is it something the non-religious are missing out on or have they simply find alternate means to produce these chemicals?

When I was 17, I gave myself to God and was immediately flooded with a sense of wellbeing. This at the time seemed to justify belief in God. You believe in God and you are rewarded with a feeling of wellbeing.

Is religious belief a way of tricking the brain into releasing the chemicals to cause a physiological experience we desire?

I've often asked what benefit religious belief brings. Perhaps it is this chemical high cause by the release of serotonin and other chemicals that make us feel good, happy.

By criticizing a person's religious belief are you threatening to cut them off from their fix?
In my understanding of religion and Cultivation paths the only "goal" is enlightenment or salvation. And has nothing to do with tricking the brain :) if anything spiritual practice fully open the brains capacity to realize the true nature of our world.
 
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